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I am a prochoice Catholic
by Kate Childs Graham on Feb. 26, 2009
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Printer-friendly versionSend to friendPDF versionI wasn’t always a prochoice Catholic. During college I attended the annual March for Life on more than one occasion. The first time my friends and I traveled to the event from Indianapolis, Ind., was with a bus full of high school students -- most, seemingly, only going for the trip to Washington, D.C., with their friends, sans parental supervision. Needless to say, it was a noisy bus ride. After I transferred to Catholic University, I volunteered for the Mass for Life two years in a row -- helping to herd all of those high school students into every crevice of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.
Each time I attended the March for Life, I felt overwhelmingly conflicted. On one hand, it was moving to be among so many people, all energized by their faith around an issue. On the other hand, I sensed that I wasn’t getting the complete picture -- I wasn’t being told the full story.
And thus started my process of discernment around the right to abortion. It took several years. I asked friends on both sides of the issue thousands of questions. I read book after book. I prayed. I studied what the church hierarchy had to say about the issue. I studied what the Catholic church -- the faithful -- had to say about the issue.
In the end, after months of avoiding my conscience as to not stir up any controversy in my life, I finally discerned that I am a prochoice Catholic.
There is no way to explain in just a few words all of the reasons I came to this conclusion. Nonetheless, I would like to highlight a few points that moved me to identify as a prochoice Catholic.
Where abortion is prohibited or stigmatized, women do not all of the sudden decide to carry pregnancies to term. Decisions pertaining to family are greater than law or custom. Instead, women seek out abortion where it is available. Where it is illegal, more often than not abortions are unsafe. According to the World Health Organization, 19 million unsafe abortions occur each year and some 70,000 women die as a result. Even worse, in some countries where abortion is illegal and women come into hospitals to seek medical attention for a botched abortion, they aren’t treated with the care they need. Rather, they are treated as criminals, left to suffer on an examination table as the doctors and nurses are forced to call in a police examiner.
For these reasons alone, I could see that the illegalization of abortion is not the way to go. However, for me (and for many others), being prochoice does not end at supporting the right to safe and legal abortion; it extends to discovering the best methods to prevent unintended pregnancies. Contraception promotion, comprehensive sexuality education, and access to affordable child care and healthcare are just some of the methods that are paramount to reducing the need for abortion. The antiabortion movement (and even moderate Catholics who talk about reducing the number of abortions) are avoiding discussions around these important ways to prevent unintended pregnancies.
Finally, I am a prochoice Catholic because my Catholic faith tells me I can be. The Catechism reads, “[Conscience] is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.” Even St. Thomas Aquinas said it would be better to be excommunicated than to neglect your individual conscience. So really, I am just following his lead. After years of research, discernment and prayer, my conscience has been well informed. Being a prochoice Catholic does not contradict my faith; rather, in following my well-informed conscience, I am adhering to the central tenet of Catholic teaching -- the primacy of conscience.
My hope is that together the hierarchy of the Catholic church, the antiabortion movement and the prochoice movement will help people of all faiths and no faith to develop well-informed consciences. However, this can only be done by talking about the whole picture -- from the dangers of unsafe abortion to the importance of preventing unintended pregnancy. By narrowing our focus to the legalization/illegalization of abortion, we are ignoring the realities which women and families face around the world. And that’s not serving anyone.
Kate Childs Graham writes for ReligionDispatches.org and YoungAdultCatholics-Blog.com. She also serves on the Women’s Ordination Conference board of directors and the Call to Action Next Generation Leadership Team.
As a far from young (age 82)
As a far from young (age 82) Catholic, with a carefully formed conscience and with long experience, I agree wholeheartedly with Kate. I applaud her courage. May her tribe increase as we search for truly Christian solutions to heartbreaking situations.
An excellent reply, in depth
An excellent reply, in depth to this article:
http://patrickmadrid.blogspot.com/2009/02/5-most-pathetic-words-i-am-pro...
It is so true when we pray to
It is so true when we pray to St Michael for protection from Satan who "seeks the ruin of souls". It is so sad, and I have to say frightening, when one turns their soul from God but thinks in their own mind ( or conscience) that their own twisted thinking is in line with His when every bit of reality shows other wise. Kate, and 82, I can assure you that you are in my prayers and I will over up my little sufferings for you.
Did you read what she wrote?
Did you read what she wrote? She is not in favor of women choosing abortion. She is only in favor of forgiveness, compassion, and tolerance for those whose consciences are not formed in such a way as to prevent them from making that choice or the choices that would lead them to the point of considering abortion.
Marie, you have to remember,
Marie, you have to remember, that many of those who call themselves "faithful orthodox", including many of the bishops, have a long and well documented history of distorting the truth, lying, vandelism (spamming), extortion and other criminal types of behaviors that they employ in order to force their opinions on others. The concept of honesty and integrity is truly foreign to them. All that matters to them is forcing their self righteous hypocrisies down the throats of everyone else, no matter what it takes, no matter who they harm, no matter how much depravity it requires of them to do so.
It is actually evident, given
It is actually evident, given any thought, that what they do does more to prolong the legality of abortion throughout the entire gestational period than it does to convince anyone that abortion is the gravest evil. If there is one factor that has made compromise impossible over the thirty something years, it is the distortions and character attacks that are aimed at anyone, ANYONE, who does not flatter these people with the words that imply they are the most holy of all.
You seem to have a,
You seem to have a, practically, all consuming rage and hatred for the Church which I think slid past irrational long ago.
What personal wrong has been done to you? What did you not get that you think you should have received? On what pet issue of yours does the Church stand in opposition?
These are good questions and
These are good questions and yes, I do have anger, but it is not with the church per se, but with the Magisterial Authorities. Interestingly enough, it wasnt until the 2008 election that the anger began to boil over.
It started when several bishops, in their authority, stated that anyone who supported (voted for) Obama (I did) was guilty of supporting abortion and had no right to be taking communion with "real" catholics.
It escalated when the Republican Party, with the support of the USCCB, began their hate campaign against Obama. The bishops backed the McCain campaign. Not one of them denounced the hateful rhetoric, the deception and lies that were the core of the McCain campaign. (implied consent to the tactics) Instead, they began their own campaign to intimidate (blackmail) catholic voters to vote for McCain.
It further escalated with the "abortion is the only issue that matters" rhetoric.
There was Bishop Morlino, on the board of the school of the americas, who publicly denied that they were teaching torture techniques.
... and the scandals and corruptions continue to grow (all transposed against the backdrop of the pedophile priest scandal)
The icing to top it all off is the current "blame the gays for all of our problems" rhetoric that is now flowing. Most recent was Bishop Lori blaming the gay community for the pending bill to hold the bishops legally accountable for the finances of their parishes.
I am appalled at the level of corruption I can see within the Magisterial Authority. Yes there are many decent dedicated bishops who are faithful, and there are many who are not.
The personal wrong? The Magisterial Authority violated the trust I gave them. Perhaps that was my error to begin with, trusting them. I wont make that mistake again. At this point, anything that Magisterial Authorities say is questionable and suspect. If I cannot verify it scripturally, then I consider it to be another lie and or a deception. Another attempt to manipulate the laity for their personal agendas.
Yes, it is cynical. And there is, in my opinion, voluminous evidence to support that cynicism. Voluminous evidence to support the premise that the Magisterial Authority (in general) simply cannot be trusted anymore.
"It started when several
"It started when several bishops, in their authority, stated that anyone who supported (voted for) Obama (I did) was guilty of supporting abortion"
- Do you support abortion?
"began their hate campaign against Obama."
- Hate? Hate? What hate? I admit I didn't watch a lot of TV during the election, but I think I would have seen had the Republicans used racial slurs against him or the like.
"If I cannot verify it scripturally, then I consider it to be another lie and or a deception."
- Really? Does that apply to such things as the Trinity, which, BTW, you will not find mentioned in the Scriptures? Are you truly going to declare yourself the property of Sola Scriptura? By what authority do you deny the Church. Should we all take Pope DGF's word for it? Or can we be our own popes and decide everythign individually for ourselves too? Which of us popes will be right if we happen to disagree with you? BTW, you do know that the Scriptures themselves were compiled by *GASP* the authorities of the Church into what we officially call the Bible now, right? And there was plenty of scandle back then too. So I guess you better not trust Scripture then either. It might just be an attempt to manipulate the laity. You didn't think this cunning plan through very well, did ya?
I personally don't believe your motives. Has there been scandle? Oh yes. These are the worst ones EVER right?
Not by a long shot...
If you are easily pulled away from your Faith by scandle I think it is totally incomprehensible that you became Catholic at all, unless you're an historical and Scriptural illiterate.
Did not the first pontiff, the Rock on which Christ founded the Church, deny Him to save his own skin? Did not one of his chosen followers, who saw all He did, who saw Him RAISE THE DEAD BACK TO LIFE, sell him out for a bag of silver coins? How could you trust the Church after that?
How about some of the famous popes of the late Middle Ages who had more mistresses hanging on them than the most famous rap stars today could dream of. Popes and bishops who ordered murder after murder of their political opponents. Are you totally ignorant of history? I seriously doubt it.
I think there is a different reason why you are filled with rage, and I don't think it has anything to do with the recent scandles.
Your responses are
Your responses are interesting and say a lot about you.
First, at this point, whether I do or dont support abortion is irrelevant. The point is, I was never asked. Because I voted for Obama, I was labeled as proabortion by the Bishops, without being asked BTW, and told I did not deserve to receive communion.
I find it difficult to believe with all of the press coverage that you missed the rallys where hate rhetoric flowed freely against Obama. But then again, perhaps you didnt miss it, perhaps, like so many others, you simply chose not to see it, or perhaps you did see it and you rationalized it away in your antiabortion fervor.
Concerning hate rhetoric ...
--- Should we all take Pope DGF's word for it?
--- Which of us popes will be right if we happen to disagree with you?
--- You didn't think this cunning plan through very well, did ya?
--- it is totally incomprehensible that you became Catholic at all, unless you're an historical and Scriptural illiterate.
What concern is it of yours if I choose to interpret scripture over catechism or canon?
When did the Pope Benedict make you my judge?
Who made you the ultimate authority on church teachings?
Quite frankly, you sound a lot like Fred Phelps. You act a lot like Fred Phelps. Just like Fred Phelps your rage is showing through in your responses.
You claim to be a faithful catholic, yet you demonstrate the same rage that you are condemning me for, yours is just pointing in a different direction. The difference is that mine is addressed at the corruption within the Magisterial Authorities, yours is directed at me personally.
"First, at this point,
"First, at this point, whether I do or dont support abortion is irrelevant. The point is, I was never asked. Because I voted for Obama, I was labeled as proabortion by the Bishops, without being asked BTW, and told I did not deserve to receive communion."
- I didn't ask you if you supported Obama. I asked you if you supported abortion. Do you?
"perhaps, like so many others, you simply chose not to see it, or perhaps you did see it and you rationalized it away in your antiabortion fervor."
- That's a lot of assumptions and judgement coming from someone who says we shouldn't judge. Perhaps we should clarify our terms. Please define the word HATE for me.
"Concerning hate rhetoric"
- Ignore my last request. It seems your definition of "hate" is "anything I don't like to hear."
"Should we all take Pope DGF's word for it?"
This is a legitimate question. You have placed yourself as judge of all Catholic doctrine. Nothing is true unless you declare it so, as you stated previously. That means you have assumed authority that even superseads the Holy Father, as not even HE can throw out doctrine. What other title is there for the position you claim except for 'Pope'?
"Which of us popes will be right if we happen to disagree with you?"
- This is the same question that throws Protestants. If you declare yourself to be the sole rule of what is and is not to be accepted doctrine, can not everyone else to likewise? And if another claims the same authority disagree on what should be believed, by what objective criteria do we determine who is right?
"it is totally incomprehensible that you became Catholic at all, unless you're an historical and Scriptural illiterate."
- You have basically stated that scandles are driving you away. If scandel drives you from the Church of Christ so easily, that you MUST be historicaly illiterate as there have been scandles all through the very existence of the Church, MUCH worse than we have today.
"What concern is it of yours if I choose to interpret scripture over catechism or canon?"
- Because you can't claim to be Cathlolic and do so. You can not use the term 'Catholic' the way you use the word 'hate', ie, you can't make it mean anything you want it to mean.
"When did the Pope Benedict make you my judge?"
- Would you accept it if he did? If not, why does it matter? I don't presume to judge the condition of your soul, but I do judge your statements and your theology on their face value, which is very low.
"Who made you the ultimate authority on church teachings?"
- So, by simply stating Church teaching, I am claiming to be the ultimate authority on Church teaching? Is a college student claiming to ultimate authority in physics when he explains to a classmate that force equals mass times accelleration? Besides, I think we already established that I can't have that position. You've already claimed it.
"your rage is showing through in your responses"
- Really? I'm the one asking questions and points on your theology and you are the one answering only with angry emotions. Try answering the questions objectivly. (which I know, you probably won't.)
Who is Frank Phelps?
Who is Frank Phelps?
"May her tribe increase"??!
"May her tribe increase"??! Excuse me ... we're talking abortion here. As for courage - it takes practically no courage in this society - culture - country to find those who would put anyone on a pedestal for declaring that "their conscience" allows them to choose to kill. Yes, yes, she said pro-choice, not pro-abortion. But semantics don't change the reality of what choice in this context means - I get to choose to dispose of anyone smaller than me.
Prochoice Catholic =
Prochoice Catholic = Oxymoron
You could also say that an
You could also say that an honest bishop is an oxymoron as well.
If you want to sling mud and call names, there is more than enough ammunition for both sides.
wasn't there some guy with a
wasn't there some guy with a lantern looking for an honest man?
How can you say someone lied so babies must die?
The researchers found that
The researchers found that prior induced abortions increased a woman's odds of having a preterm delivery by 64 percent.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/mar/09030404.html
Does this concern you?
If this is true, then this is
If this is true, then this is something that should concern women who are going to abortion clinics and their gynecologists and obstetricians. Is it my business to make sure that every person does only what is good for him or her? I think not. People need to respect other people's boundaries.
I disagree.
I disagree.
You dont agree that we need
You dont agree that we need to respect other peoples boundaries?
Boundaries? I'm confused. Is
Boundaries? I'm confused. Is that the premature babies boundaries or the mother's?
Would you consider future problems as complications of that "safe" abortion?
Why do abortion advocates fight informed consent so hard?
I am thinking that they fight
I am thinking that they fight so hard because of the kind of thing that just transpired in Brazil. If women were to give up even the slightest bit on a full claim to life and death decisionmaking power over their gestating offspring, they would likely put women's rights in general mere inches away from being eliminated.
As far as boundaries go, in the first place, people are individually accountable to God for their moral mistakes. Then, secondly, they are even more responsible for taking good care of their bodies. They should be informed, but not restrained.
In case you are heading in this direction, seatbelt use is mandated by law for the safety of automobile occupants. Violating the law results in a fine. If someone is adamant about not wearing a seatbelt, he or she does not wear one and accepts the consequences of injury in an accident or the fine if detained by a policeman. He or she is not required to spend nine months wearing a seat belt day and night.
This is an Elizabeth Anscombe
This is an Elizabeth Anscombe moment. Time to walk away.
wow.. you got a go a
wow.. you got a go a seriously review your 82 year old formed conscience. I am sure there is still a lot of work to do.
Your "carefully formed
Your "carefully formed conscience" needs some polishing....I would suggest you actually review the Catechism to see what it says about abortion and about conscience. When you do you will realize how Kate's main goal is cunning deceit and the destruction of souls. Sounds moribund? Yes, but its true. There is such a thing as right and wrong. You are either with Jesus and his Church or against them. Have some courage and take a distinct stand.
Your carefully formed
Your carefully formed conscience along with that of the writer have not lead you to the truth on this matter. The commandment, Thou shall not kill, clearly applies to the subject of abortion. As far as the issue of seeking ways of contraception that are acceptable still end an innocent life. Life is a act of God and a blessing of God in marriage, we are supposed to be open to the possibility of life every time we engage in sexual relations with our husband or wife. By acting in such a way as to prevent conception, one says to God, that they know better and as a result you are not seeking God's will but your own. If your conscience is telling you to do anything against God's will, then this is not your conscience speaking but something else. God's presence leads to life. Based on what you wrote, you also must not believe that life begins at the moment of conception (which is the Catholic belief). If you did, then you could not support abortion in all it's forms and contraception is a form of abortion. Taking the life of an innocent can never be from God. Prayer is in order for all of us to seek the will of God in all things.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/am
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7929712.stm
If taking the life of an innocent is never from God, how do you justify this? If this raped 80 pound 9 year old had not had an abortion, doctors in other articles say that in their professional opinion, her very womb would have ripped. To me, that sounds like she AND her twins would have died. Apparently, though, the Church sees fit to excommunicate people who tried to save the only one of the three lives they really could.
The only other option I can think of would have been a surgery the Church would not have approved that occurred to no one - to remove the two fetus' and transplant them into a surrogate mother (which I'm not even sure is possible, but it wouldn't surprise me).
"Abortion is a free choice."
"Abortion is a free choice." Really? Honestly consider this statement. I don't know a single woman who wants or ever wanted their own child ripped out from inside them, or their insides carved out with a razor sharp knife-like instrument. Do you? Abortion is a choice like: “Oh, you need your broken bone treated? Let me chop off that limb, and the break will disappear!” With this remedy, for the rest of her life a woman has to try to manage without a piece of herself. The women who have suffered through this “help”, convinced that this is their only “option,” are now left without an arm. The phantom pains are beyond description.
Let's offer real options to women, not abortion, it goes against every natural instinct within us, as women. It is something we are pressured into by a society filled with mistaken people, like this young women. I am a woman in my 20's. Why can't other women, who seem gun-ho for "women's rights" work to offer real options to women stuck in unplanned or traumatic pregnancies? Why can't we, as a society, love the lives of both souls, and protect the lives of both? That's the truly Catholic solution.
anonymous 82 My prayer for
anonymous 82
My prayer for you
"O God, the restorer and lover of innocence,
direct the hearts of Thy servants unto Thyself:
that being enkindled with the fire of Thy Spirit,
they may be found both steadfast in faith and fruitful in deed."(from the Collect)
May your innocence be restored; Amen.
I am glad your mother was NOT
I am glad your mother was NOT pro choice.
Evidently she made the right
Evidently she made the right choice.
The recognition of a right
The recognition of a right choice, implies the existence of a wrong choice. So why is this wrong choice legal? Who speaks for the child?
Most pro-choice women over a
Most pro-choice women over a certain age that I know and have encountered not only have children, but usually have had more than one.
As Dolores Huerta said at a Planned Parenthood luncheon a few years ago, she's the mother of eleven children (that's right, eleven children) "BY CHOICE."
Not by choice - there are
Not by choice - there are many women who would choose to have children and can't.
She had eleven children by the grace of God.
And she is probably arrogant enough to think she should decide who is qualified to have children.
So are you saying pro-life
So are you saying pro-life women with large families didn't make a choice?
It took an enormous amount of
It took an enormous amount of courage and faith for you to sign your name to this statement, and I admire you for that. As you know, this will generate a firestorm of ugly and mean-spririted comments, some of which will actually make it through the moderator. But I'm sure you're ready for that or you never would have posted this.
I would only say that any person who truly calls him or herself pro-life must eventually acknowledge that hearts will never be changed by criminalizing behavior. Criminalizing abortion will only drive desperate women into an underworld of back alley procedures with deadly consequences. This will lead to even more deaths, which is certainly counter to the sanctity of life.
Women not only need the things you mention: family planning, access to contraception, health care and child care. They also need our society's unfettered support for life after they make a choice to bring a pregnancy to term. We as a society dismiss too cavalierly issues of economics, poverty, mental health, and access to education as they apply to this decision. Until we come to grips with these and other issues, we will never materially reduce our country's abortion rate. And no amount of legislation or fulmination from our bishops our pro-life sisters and brothers will change that. It's time that we become pro-life after birth, rather than merely "pro-birth and you're on your own".
Mark, Abortion ALREADY IS a
Mark,
Abortion ALREADY IS a underworld procedure with deadly consequences - FOR THE BABY!
hearts will never be changed
hearts will never be changed by criminalizing behavior
So we should legalize murder, rape, robbery?
Bill, If you have not
Bill,
If you have not murdered, raped, or robbed anyone, are we to attribute that to the fact that these things are illegal? I wouldn't do these things even if they were legal.
Marie R. - are you a
Marie R. - are you a libertarian? That's fine. But pro-providing abortion is not Roman Catholic teaching.
I guess a person can start his/her own church, such as: pro-murder catholic, pro-pedophile catholic, pro-pornography catholic, pro-deception catholic, pro-stealing catholic, pro-fornication catholic, pro-adultery catholic, pro-slavery catholic, pro-prostitution catholic, etc.
but none of those are Roman Catholic.
Bill, Everyone has a right
Bill,
Everyone has a right to life, but that right does not obliterate the rights of others.
The Church's position is that fetal right to life trumps maternal right to life. This is fine in the Church's worldview where this life is primarily a journey of the soul and all experiences are meant by God to be opportunities for the soul's preparation for its ultimate union with God. In this view, if a mother aborts her child, then she, in defiance of God's will, is not only injuring her own soul but is depriving her child's soul of it's opportunity to make its soul-purifying journey, possibly consigning that soul to a limbo-esque eternity.
However, not everyone is Catholic. Therefore, not everyone shares this particular worldview. Some people feel that there are in fact injustices that are simply the fruit of evil, which God does not intend to happen, but which may, not must, benefit one's soul when we turn to God for help. In fact, they believe that salvation is a gift to them from God and that this life on earth is meant to be lived out in conscious gratitude for that gift, not in fear of eternal damnation. They do not consider each and every conception to be micromanaged by God. They consider that all of us are here by chance and that God is happy to get souls in whatever form they arrive.
So, Bill, the vast majority of Americans believe that the living, already born citizen's right to life trumps the unborn's right to life when the two rights come into direct opposition, such as when the pregnant person's life or health is endangered by pregnancy or when a woman becomes pregnant without her explicit consent.
The point you are making is that it is Catholic dogma, equivalent in significance to belief in the divinity of Jesus, that no Catholic may believe that it is all right to respect the religious beliefs of other Americans when it comes to abortion. They must not only apply their Church's beliefs to their own life choices, but must impose those beliefs on their fellow citizens.
I doubt that it makes me a libertarian to disagree with that point.
Marie R - you wrote: "The
Marie R - you wrote: "The Church's position is that fetal right to life trumps maternal right to life"
Is is not.
Not sure what you are saying.
Not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that the Church teaches that it is all right to have an abortion if the mother's life is in danger? Quite frankly, I see no evidence of that in practice or in discussions on the matter. I do keep seeing assertions that there is no life endangering circumstance that can be helped by having an abortion. Clearly, an archbishop has ruled to that effect regarding the life of a nine year old girl.
Marie R - you wrote: "The
Marie R - you wrote: "The Church's position is that fetal right to life trumps maternal right to life."
I said, "It does not."
Reading the life of St. Gianna Molla might enlighten the Church's position on the life of the mother for you.
My understanding of the story
My understanding of the story of St. Gianna Molla is that she chose to give up her life rather than have an abortion that might have made it possible, but not guaranteed, that she would not have died. This would prove nothing with regard to how she would have been regarded had she chosen abortion.
So, perhaps, rather than making me track down the portion of the story that makes your point, you could be more specific in explaining what the Church teaches. Is it all right to have an abortion in an attempt to save your life or are you automatically excommunicated because it is a mortal sin no matter the circumstances?
St. Gianna Molla was an
St. Gianna Molla was an Italian physician who had cancer. She had the option of taking life saving drugs for the cancer, drugs which have the side effect of abortion.
The Church's teaching, in this case, defers to the life of the mother.
St. Gianna made a heroic sacrifice and laid down her life for her child.
She was canonized, not just for this decision, but for the total beauty of her life as a wife, as a mother, as a physician.
My mistake on the details.
My mistake on the details. If she had taken drugs that hurt or killed her baby, that would have been different from having an abortion to prevent herself from dying from the pregnancy. This was obviously different from the case with the little girl in Brazil.
Based on the response of the Archbishop in Brazil to that situation and the subsequent statement by Cardinal Re at the Vatican, fetal right to life does trump maternal right to life if the only way to save the mother's life is by doing an abortion.
I know I am not the only one who finds this compulsion to oppose abortion to this extreme, that it may not even be used to save the life of the mother without incurring excommunication, to be dismissive of the lives of women. Thank God we live in a country in which abortion is legal and not in a theocracy run by the Catholic Church, where surely women would be consigned to abbreviated lives as incubators.
What is wrong with
What is wrong with incubators?
Incubators make living possible.
Incubators are good things, that often preform works of mercy.
My father in law was in an incubator of sorts.
My little brother was in an incubator.
My niece is in an incubator right now.
And that should be "perform
And that should be "perform works of mercy".
Really ridiculous.
Really ridiculous. Obviously, brainless machines can be incubators. Nothing wrong with that, but don't you think it's a bit dismissive of the humanity of women to insist their lives are not worth anything beyond their usefulness as incubators? I'm sure my children find the other things I do for them at least as significant as my having provided them incubation space. I'd bet they'd defend my life against the preferences of a Brazilian archbishop.
You weren't just an
You weren't just an incubator.
You provided food, drink, clothing, and shelter.
You welcomed the stranger.
How different from the abortionist.
Do you mean how different
Do you mean how different from the doctor who performed the abortion in Brazil, or do you mean how different from the proverbial abortionist. Honestly, I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all, people who are involved in abortion are not different from me or you.
I mean any abortionist. Speak
I mean any abortionist.
Speak for yourself on that bet.
Marie R. This is a false
Marie R.
This is a false premise.
What evidence did the abortionist have to say that having the twins would kill her?
In certain cases, such a tubal pregnancy, there is a coincident death of a baby (who incidentally has no chance of being carried to viability) because of a life saving measure. If the mother chose not to have this procedure, both she and the baby would die.
There is no Church directive that says a mother should forgo chemotherapy that may incidentally cause an abortion. It that case, the mother may decide for heroic sacrifice - but that that truly is her choice.
First of all, having had four
First of all, having had four children, I know how strenuous pregnancy is on an adult female body. Secondly, having been a nine year old girl and having had two daughters who were once nine years old, and knowing all their little nine year old friends, I can tell you that no nine year old's body is meant to carry a baby, let alone two.
Am I sure she would have died? No, because miracles are always a possibility. However, miracles are not guaranteed, so those who demand that others act as though a miracle were likely are overstepping their authority.
In the case in Brazil, it could almost be guaranteed that the death of the girl would be coincident with the death of the twins. So let's not get too technical about it.
Marie R - I see no evidence
Marie R -
I see no evidence only your surmisals.
The fact that she got pregnant gives some evidence of reproductive system maturity. This is an individual case.
What clinical evidence do you have that her life was in imminent danger from pregnancy at the time of the abortion?
Every reproductive act, abortion, and pregnancy carries risk.
Good grief, the only evidence
Good grief, the only evidence that it would surely kill her would be if it did. You see how this rigidity is making it impossible for people to support the anti-abortion side of the debate.
So there was no known risk to
So there was no known risk to the mother.
I guess the bishop was right.
The only rigidity I see is
The only rigidity I see is yours.
There was a qualified medical
There was a qualified medical opinion, so I would say that you are making the assumptions and your goal is the oppression of women.
I think the girl was
I think the girl was victimized by her abuser;
was victimized by the abortionist;
and is being victimized by those using her as an example of a "necessary"
abortion.
She would have been the
She would have been the victim of a rigid ideology had she not had the abortion.
Like I said : she was
Like I said : she was victimized by her abuser;
was victimized by the abortionist;
and is being victimized by the rigid
ideology of those who are using
her as an example of a "necessary"
abortion.
...but what about the
...but what about the baby??...
The baby will die whether it
The baby will die whether it is legally or illegally aborted. If illegal, who is the criminal? mother? father? physician? Nurses? Does the mother go to jail? For how long? If we define abortion as "murder", shouldn't the mother-- or all of them-- be sentenced to death?
I admire Kate's process of discernment. It is not something that many of us truly know how to do.
Gerald
If cocaine was available for
If cocaine was available for sale at your local convenience store there would be many addicts and destroyed lives. Since it is illegal, many are saved. Making abortion illegal would save many human beings from certain death. Doctors who perform them should be sentenced to jail time and barred form being "doctors". Women who have abortions should receive mental counseling.
In the old days it was not
In the old days it was not doctors who performed the illegal abortions, except in those cases where they had already lost their licenses and needed to earn a living. The punishment was a fine, not jail time. Of course, if the woman died from complications, then the person who did the abortion was sometimes found guilty of involuntary manslaughter.
If cocaine were available at my local convenience store, there would be more people who would become addicted, yes. So, are you saying that having an abortion is addictive?
It has been postulated that
It has been postulated that abortion can be addictive.
I would expect that getting
I would expect that getting into the predicament that makes abortion "necessary" is the addictive thing.
Marie R - When you say, "I
Marie R -
When you say, "I would expect that getting into the predicament that makes abortion "necessary" is the addictive thing." -
Do you mean contraceptives?