The grace of living on the margins

I love your description of being "incorrigibly Catholic" - wonderful!:)

Jamie has perhaps learned one of the most important spiritual lessons she can -- namely, that often an "institution" can only get in the way of spiritual progress because it is so limited in its scope and vision -- BUT in focusing instead on the marginalized of our society, she is BEING Christ in the most important of ways. I read a line once that went something like: "And when you have died, let it not be said how eloquently you spoke of God, but how "real" you made Him to others." I think Jamie has already learned that secret to a deeply successful life.

Thanks you for this wonderful entry that portrays what the living out of the gospel message is all about --a far cry from the hierarchical mode that stifles this! I am inspired!

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I'm an ordained ruling elder and certified Christian educator in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), and while I have not suffered the denial of gifts you have, Jamie, I also find that so often the institutional church is more interested in its "purity" (ordination standards) than in living out the good news of Jesus Christ. I'm straight, married to the same man for 34 years, and I am so distressed and grieved over the denial of service and use of their gifts that my GLBT sisters and brothers experience in the church. That includes grief includes my Catholic sisters who cannot serve as priests. My prayer is that we will recognize what a disservice it is to God and God's creation, especially humanity, when we erect barriers that prevent full use of what God has given for God's service.

This is a wonderful article about the relaity of ministry and Catholicism for many women. One small correction-- last I checked Margaret Farley was a Sister of Mercy.Many thanks for this account of a graced ministry. MEH

It's too bad the CHURCH is so blind that it doesn't see giftedness in the form of a female body whatever her sexual orientation. She is a gift to the world.

What a beautiful article. What an obvious but impactful 'twist' on the exclusion of women from the priesthood: because of her body. So many of the exclusionists rationalize it as presumption on the part of women to aspire to the 'status' of priesthood. Here is such an obvious example of someone with the calling to service which merits to be acknowledged as sacramental. But then she would have to overcome the added exclusion of her "intrinsic disorder".

you speak for many, and I am thankful to hear such an eloquent speaking.
I have attended an RC womenpriest ordination here in Victoria, BC where marginalized women and a man were ordained. I have attended retreat days by Michelle Birch-Conery to the Vancouver Dignity group and I agree with one of the statements I saw on the petition for Fr Roy Bourgeios - God calls by name not by gender

St. Patrick is a great patron for those on the margins. It seems that the closer you get to a good, present environment, the less you have to defend your right to be there. I recently radically changed careers when it became slowly and painfully obvious that I was wasting my time and talent. I am now in graduate school and will become a healer. I am thankful for my journey, but rejection still hurts.

Jamie,
What a beautiful reflection! As a 30something Catholic woman with an M.Div., I've long felt this sense of disconnect and your image of upstairs/downstairs church captures it well.
I recall a heated discussion in one of my classes when the topic of being a woman in the church came up, and the few of us women in the class speaking about our love/hate relationship with the church. One of my male classmates finally said, 'well, if you're unhappy, why don't you just leave,' and one of the other women said, 'no you can't bully us out, its our church too.' So for you and all the other strong women who find creative ways to sustain yourselves in the margins, thank you!
It's sad that as women, we are not welcome in 'upstairs' church but then again, isn't 'downstairs' where we really find the people of God? Which is a loss for our ordained male colleagues as well, who don't experience 'downstairs' church in quite the same way.
Jill

Wow. Thanks for sharing your story. By sharing our stories can we help each other discover God in the margins. It is easy to forget that that is where Jesus lives.

I appreciate Jamie sharing her experience.
It heightens my awareness of just how far we have to go.
She also opens me to issues I have never been concerned
about.

Dear Jamie,

Thank you for your faithful testimony.
You touched me and I grew. Your article is food for my meditation for a lifetime.

Dear Unordainable Body,

You have a lot of company. These thousands of unordainable bodies, many of whom I have met in the course of my lifetime, are among the holiest and 'wholiest' of people I have ever known. One reason is because they (we) know who they are far more than many of the ordained I have known. There is nothing like being put in the position of having to claim one's dignity to help anchor self-knowledge and, indeed, spiritual self-esteem -- not to mention the ability to be honest about that identity, to be authentic, healthy even! Nothing to hide. No scandal.

Open fully to the grace of God in one's life and where that grace leads one -- which, if we read the gospels, tends to be out there in the streets, among the poor, the broken, the struggling, the suffering...

Many of us have shaken the dust from our feet over the years. I believe it wrong to be where one is not honored and revered, where one is made to feel incomplete, not quite right, not fully acceptable.

So many women, so many gay and lesbian people, have distanced from a heartless, fearful institution because they could not find Jesus there. And how easily we found Jesus when, like you, we drew close to the homeless, the "illegal," the refugees, the poor of our world.

We know what the institution values by where it puts its focus. As we heard the words of Cardinal Stafford on cable news the other day regarding Barack Obama, we had to sit and wonder at how these people experience Jesus of Nazareth walking the streets of our world, or if they do at all. Who did Jesus hang out with? What happened at the temple when he arrived? What did he have to say about the religious leaders of his time?

I've been to that parish in New York. I spoke there once. I was amazed at the teeming life that spills into the buildings from the streets. Despite the many outreach efforts, the fact that you and so many women, and gay and lesbian people, feel less than fully human, less than fully honored, in such places, calls them into question, even as they seek to do various important ministries.

I, too, found the gospel in the streets, where hierarchy and orthodoxy meant little to the homeless men and women, to the refugees fleeing war, to courageous human rights workers living amidst war and dictatorship, to undocumented peoples along our borders. In these spaces, false identities are stripped away and we get down to the raw basics of life. That just also happens to be precisely where Jesus hangs out.

We know where the gospel is, and we know where to find our identities, our vocations, our faith. Thank you for this reflection and best wishes on your journey.

What a sensitive, thoughtful statement of the sad reality of the gifts of women in the Catholic Church. Mine is an appreciation of the same story from an earlier generation.

Years ago I was talking with a Catholic who was married and said that he was going to become a Catholic priest. I then learned that he was married and asked how he was going to do that. He told me that he was going to become Episcopalian, get ordained and then convert.
It seems that we are slowly getting married priest, but they have to be ordained first in another religion, such as the Episcopal or Lutheran churches.

The Roman Catholic Church has to be strict if the Old Catholics are going to be kept. The church can't experiment with sexuality in the ministry.

I spent a long time staying with the church until I discovered that the church did not follow many of the teachings of Jesus, and I was on the outside.

Good luck Jamie, and for what it is worth, I will pray for you and your ministry.

Peace!

Your story is that of so many faithful women. Your positive response in life, and the way you celebrate eucharist with the disenfranchised is a great example and blessing. May the downstairs church thrive!

Thanks Jamie. Inspiring article. Keep up the good work.

God Bless

Thank you for a wonderful article. I, too, was starved in the Roman Catholic Church. My answer to that starvation was to leave and join another church where I give and receive the sustenance that I need.

Jamie,

Thank you for sharing your beautiful story so honestly. I too felt in my younger days that I might have a call to the Catholic priesthood. I decided that I did not want to give up my weekends. Pretty shallow reasoning but I think it was that I just gave up the fight and couldn't face the rejection. Now at 59 I struggle mightily to find an intentional community that will bring the Eucharist alive in ways that lead to true service of God's little ones.

Breaking the bread of your life as you do is indeed what Jesus invites all of us to do. Thanks for your witness.

Peace,
Kim

Thank you for so beautifully witnessing the Gospel of Jesus Christ by living your faith. As we know, God's grace knows no boundary.

Jamie,

God bless you for your courage and devotion. May our Church leaders learn to appreciate who and what you are...a blessing to us all.

Jack

I am surprised that there are almost a thousand reads, but no comments posted thus far. I, too, have been denied priesthood, not because I am gay but because I am married. I don't question whether or not I would have been a good priest and homilist, but I wouldn't trade my life as a husband, father and grandfather for a celibate lifestyle (celibacy was not the reason I left the seminary). While classmates of mine have been ordained and subsequently left active ministry, I served the church for forty years as a teacher and liturgical music minister. Along the way, like Ms. Manson, I have fed and been fed by countless contacts with people in the course of my own ministry.
The bottom line is that I still feel that I could have done more, given more, from the grace of a married vocation.

I don't know what the church would look like if we returned to the stable and started over again. If we managed to avoid the contamination of the Roman Empire in the fourth century, and similar subsequent contaminations "of" the world in the centuries that followed, I would hope that our ordained ministers could look like Ms. Manson, as the ministers of so many other denominations and sects of Christianity do today.

How can the church become one, as Jesus prayed in John's gospel, if we don't find a way to reconcile the two extremes of "presence?"

For what it's worth...

Beautiful reflection! Thank you, Jamie, for sharing this with us.

God is blessing the work you are doing, Jamie, wherever it is. I, too, am very sorry you cannot work within the church that raised you, but it would be true of many other denominations, also. It is their loss; you have so much to give and have found a way to do it. For the homeless and hurting, it has been a good thing, and for you, too, perhaps it has been a blessing in disguise. The important thing is that God is using you and you are serving others. Your servant heart is serving God, you, and all those who need you.

This article touched me deeply. Even though I know what Jamie writes is so true, the deliberate exclusion of half of the population, many of whom do the real 'work' in the church, is nevertheless heartbreaking for many. As we grapple with the continued marginalization of women in the Catholic Church, it is often difficult to attain and maintain the gracious posture of Jamie Manson. However it is affirming to be reminded that brokenness is the heart of the Gospel story.

I can identify with Jamie in so many ways! I was a Maryknoll Missioner for 31 years and never felt as tho' I was in full communion with the Catholic Hierarchy. It was so Male oriented and the female connection was " inferior". It is so sad that a talented and well educated Lesbiam Catholic is promoted to a position of helping the less fortunate but without the stamp of approval from the very Church of our youth, is a sign that our Hierarchy is blind, insensitive and unaware of the damage they are inflicting on the bright, educated and true catholics of our present 21st century.The Catholic Church, as it stands right now, has to be reduced to ashes and rise again as the Church of Jesus as was envisioned in the early church.

I loved your article. Growing up in the Catholic Church I too have observed many groups of people being starved,i.e. divorcees, inter-faith married couples, children of inter-faith married couples, learning disabled, and gays/lesbians. I have often wondered how the Church hierarchy could ignore these groups after reading the Gospels.

Margaret Farley is a Sister of Mercy. Great article

Obviously St Francis Xavier in lower Manhattan--the inspiration for "Nothing Sacred." Twice on visits to NY I was privileged to worship there. Great priests, too.

Dear Ms. Manson,

Thank you for sharing your personal experiences. I am a young Catholic woman and I feel good about God's Church on Earth. Jesus chose His apostles to be men, when he could have chosen women. Women served as priestesses in other religions then. The mystery of God is behind this. I would not want to challenge God. God Himself called you to serve the homeless, not you. Isn't it wonderful to know how loved you are! And He Himself is present in the Eucharist. The consecration is not just some ritual some men do because they want to--it is much more: it is God's will that His sacrifice on the Cross be remembered, and that we be comforted to know that He is present in the Eucharist. This is what I know just by reading the passage of the Last Supper.

God is Good!

Thank you, Jamie, for your honesty in describing your life "on the margins". Your experience has a particular "Catholic" perspective (those men still don't want women doing that priestly thing). I am glad that you can find a place to live out your calling right here and now rather than having to wait for those behind the walls of the Vatican to see the light.

You may have been "starved" by the authorities, but you have risen above and are being well fed through you choices. May you continue to question not only your role in the world, but also those who tell you how to behave. Beware the pharisees.

Peace,

Leonard

Jamie,
"The Lord bless you and keep you,
The Lord lift his countenance upon you,
And give you peace.
The Lord lift his face to shine upon you,
And be gracious unto you."
Amen!
Mercy Michalski

Jamie, My experience as a married woman working in the institutional church parallels yours. It is tenacity and 'knowing' I am where I belong for now, that keeps me traveling this road of diocesan and parish leadership. Whenever I am able, in the small group settings that I facilitate, I voice the hyprcrasy of gender bias and keeping lay women on the fringes and have felt the powerful sting many times when my voice rings with holy truth. Your words are a great encouragement for me. Thanks.

Upstairs, downstairs. What a perfect summation of the church and its hierarchy.

Dear Jamie (and your fellow grousers),

What an arrogant, selfish, and divisive response to the Church: "I cannot be ordained a priest in this church, and I have surrounded myself with people of like mind. Since my judgment and feelings are the final arbiters on this, I'm going to stamp my feet, cry no fair, and declare the whole system wrong. *You're not the Church, I am!*" There are scores of your fellow antinomians who also find the Catholic Church too repressive and backwards looking -- they are the mainline Protestant churches, who have at least done Catholicism the favour of not casting stones at St. Peter's *from the inside*. There is no question that Christ's Gospel call includes care for the poor, your artificially divided "lower church". The more difficult dilemma in our modern era is recognizing that private morality (which you casually disregard in the name of 'authenticity' and then wonder why the Church is so wrong, by gosh!) and public morality are not either/or, but both/and. Perhaps an education at a reputable Catholic school could have better articulated that the Catholic faith demands much of us, and is not wont to bend to every passing fancy -- particularly not those of self-appointed prophets from the 'emergent church'. If I sound irritated, it is precisely because American commentaries like yours distract from the work that the Church is attempting to do in the United States, but *also* in the world beyond. -Fin

A wonderful article that gives voice to so many women with the same struggle. It gives light and hope to all of us. Thanks for writing it.

Hi Jamie-
I identify with some of your feelings about the RCC, even that very liberal one where you served and where I sometimes attend. I don't think I'll ever feel comfortable in a place with two tiers of membership (at the same price, of all kinds.) Thank you for your very eloquent essay.

I just would have hoped on the day of her leaving that Jesuit parish, Jamie would have presided over an imprompto mass in the "downstairs church." Everybody would have cheered. Charlie Davis

Great article. . . . a young voice. . .but the depth and beauty reveals the old and wise and surely one that extended from Lord. . .may your life be blessed with the call, tenacity, and grace to carry this voice and hands far dear one. . .

Two Words: "THANK YOU!"

Correction:

Because of an editing error, the religious order of Sr. Margaret Farley was misidentified when this column was first posted. Sr. Farley is a Sister of Mercy. We regret the error.

Dennis Coday
NCRonline editor

God bless you, Jamie, for sharing with us your experience and saying it so well.

What a precious message you sent to those of us who also feel at the margins, just for being women.

You show us the way, young one, and reassure us that we are on the right track.

What a beautiful human being you are!

Dear Jamie,

It sounds to me Jamie, after reading your article and all of these comments, that you are at The Center Of The Church, neither up or down. You are right where you need to be.

I spent last month arranging a paryer service for survivors of clerical abuse. I was officially banned (in a letter, signed) from making these arrangements by my own "Upstairs" Bishop. Low and behold, as usual, God made another way. I reached out to another denomination. They spent their precious ministerial time putting together readings, prayers and sent one of their own beloved priests to bless the victims and pray for, and, with them. The healing in the victims tears was humbling.

Where was the ordained of our faith? They were clinging to their diocesan letters protesting my actions.

Jamie, the Church is not far from you. In fact, you are standing firm right in the middle of it at a very difficult time. Your call to an "ordained" life is loud and clear to me; I can 'feel' your gifts. Don't for a moment think that you do not have what it takes to pray, bless and santify in the name of Love.

I would ask you to spread out your arms and thank God for giving you the clarity in discernment and the determination to listen to the Spirit's call over the Institutional's distant drum.

Are you 'Catholic'? You bet.

Are you 'priestly' in character? Without a doubt.

Thank you for your story. Please write more, and often.

Kelly
Marquette, MI

Jamie Manson's piece brings us to the heart of the church today. She proves that its institutional structures, in their isolation and self-deception, are on the periphery and she is at the center, revealing the commitment, the compassion, and the love of Jesus. She is a new strong voice crying in the wilderness where the truth of the prophet can be found.

Thank you for your witness, and your fidelity to who you are.

Jamie,
I would like to find myself in a parish where you and Father Roy Bourgeois could be our priests together and where I could meet the authors of the many supportive comments you have received to date. As it is, I wonder how many of us find Father Roy's excommunication to be the final nail in the coffin of our Catholic identity? How many of us (women especially) were holding on despite everything we know about the abuse of children within the church and trying to remain faithful.....until this clear statement from Rome about where we really stand. Just a question.
Ronnie

Thanks, Jamie -
I am so grateful you wrote and are now in a place that is nurturing
you as you give others spiritual nourishment. Praying for you and
also for the Catholic Church that the hierarchy will change some
of their beliefs and policies.

I just read Ronnie's comment that was posted Dec. 1st and totally
agree with her statement about wishing you and Fr. Roy Bourgeois
could be priests together. It's so difficult to remain a Catholic
when my beliefs differ so drastically on some important things.

Jamie-
Never forget that the Church burned Joan of Arc at the stake before hundreds of people. Then,........... they canonized her!!!!

Your reward may be yet to come!

peace and blessings!
JoAnn

This article and the follow up commentary is distressing. Not one commentary posted on this article, nor the article itself, notes that it is a theological impossibility for women to be ordained to the priesthood.

For every sacrament, there are three elements needed. The form (i.e., the words), the intent and the matter. In the case of baptism, for example, one needs the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." They need the intent, which is implied by saying the correct words, and they need the matter, which is one person administering the sacrament to another person using water.

Likewise, in priestly ordination, all three elements are needed. There are the words of ordination, the intent to do what the words of ordination mean and there is the proper matter. For priestly ordination, among other things, the proper matter consists of a male human who receives the sacrament.

Why must the ordinand be male? Simple. It's because Jesus only ordained males. If Jesus is God, which He is, then all He says and does is perfect. If he communicates something by word and example, then it is true. He doesn't need to give qualifiers for further generations as His truth is timeless. Remember, Jesus is God. In His divinity He knows everything that has happened, is happening and will happen all at once. He is not limited by time like we are. He is God.

To suggest that Jesus made a mistake or that He was bowing to political or cultural norms of the day is to suggest He is imperfect. He created us and could just as easily will us out of existance if He so desired. What logical reasoning can there be to come to an imperfect tepid Jesus? There is none.

However, if people want more info, consider Ephesians 5:21-33 and how the earthly family of husband and wife images the relationship of Christ and His Church. How can a person who God created woman image Jesus Christ in the natural sense? In her interior life, yes, but not in her natural God given being. Woman is the image of the Church in her natural God given being. Man is the image of Christ in his natural God given being. Scripture is quite clear on this.

Please, consider the deeper truths present here than a persons own desire. Consider the desire of God Himself in the person of Jesus Christ and the perfection of that desire.

God bless,
John

OK, I'm confused, is this woman actually Catholic? She is now presbyterian, I guess? (apostate?) Who knows, I guess.

"Church burned Joan of Arc"
- No. No. And still no. History shows you to be ignorant of the facts. The The English and Burgundians had her killed. Pierre Cauchon, the Bishop of Beauvais, was an unscrupulous and ambitious man who had been bought and paid for by the Burgundians helped them. Later, an appellate court constituted by the pope, after long inquiry and examination of witnesses, reversed and annulled the sentence pronounced by a local tribunal under Cauchon's presidency, which had also been bought and paid for by the English and the Burgundians.

History sir. It's your friend. Try reading it.

Mr. Tuturice,

It is VERY refreshing to see someone else write a defense of Catholic Othodoxy. I was getting VERY lonely being one of the few here who tried to defend Church teaching.

Bravo, sir.

I love it when people use the arguments developed by a celibate male only priesthood that justifies the celibate male only priesthood, and then they say that any deviation from their self-serving "justification" is a "theological impossibility." Yeah, right ....

Shocking that an article like that of "Jamie L Manson" should be published in a "Catholic" newspaper.
KP

Did a little investigating...

Yup, aparantly she isn't even Catholic at all. She has a site where she advertises weddings and 'meaningful civil ceremonies'. Here's a quick clip:

"There are many options for the type of service that we can design. It can be a civil ceremony that offers meaningful, but not overtly spiritual, language. It can be spiritual, but not religious. If you and your partner are from the same religious tradition, we can incorporate elements in word and ritual that connect with your faith. Also, since I have a thorough training in world religions, we can plan an interfaith service that respectfully integrates both of your traditions. Your needs will be our guide.

I will happily work with same sex or opposite sex couples."

- Well, I can't really act surprised that she didn't fit in with Catholics. Gay marriage is something that God happens to frown on, so Catholics follow suit.

She's felt 'starved' by the Catholic authorities? What a load of fluff. She came to the Catholic Church where Christ feeds us with His very Body and Blood... and demanded to be given watery tofu of relativism instead.

It's not the Church's fault if she is 'starving'.

Mike, to paraphrase: If you don't like it, don't read it.

Why are there are no comments that challenge you on here? Or those comments not 'approved' by the censors on here?

So much for inclusion and diversity of opinion. :-/

I recommend that you join the Episcopal Church, Jamie.

Don't know if this will ever get to you. I am a 60yrold female called to priesthood from before the womb. The womb yes a very important place--the place where all the contracts made before the foundations of the earth were laid are signed and settled upon. The owmb ---the tabernacle the inner sanctum the holiy of holies where divinity grew and tookon human flesh. The womb which was the only place that he who could not be contained by all the universe was indeed contained and dwelt among us unknown and unseen by only other "tabernacles" whose prophetic vision allowed them to pronounce the reality of Divine mingled with flesh free of human(male) interference.
The Eucharist is incomplete without this picture. It will always be an incomplete version of sacred truth. That we are women is the only reality that can complete the picture. But not a fruitless woman. Not one who will not give her womb over to fruitfulness----that muddies the picture. It takes of man's goods and attempts to deny the man. The Immmaculate offered her fruitfulness but did not take of man's goods. She did not deny man, she substituted earthly man for "the man" and he came to her in spirit and in flesh.
Do not muddy the picture any more than our brothers have. Be an alone woman before substituting a woman for a man. As an alone woman you have left room for Him who alone can truly fill.

deeply moved by ur story, May God give u strength and guide u to the right path
Dan web development

really moved by ur description May God give u strength and guide u to the right path
Daniel web development