The Independent News Source
Twitter - Facebook - Email Alerts - RSS
Education is a dangerous thing
by Nicole Sotelo on Jul. 09, 2009
Printer-friendly version
Send to friend
PDF version
Printer-friendly versionSend to friendPDF versionIn 1875 Pauline and Henry Durant opened a Christian college for women. Years later, Pauline was dismayed to know that the women were breaking an inordinate number of dishes during washing duties. But the women were breaking more than fine china. They were breaking long-held beliefs and boundaries around women.
For the first time in history, large groups of women were educated and empowered in the 1800s to earn their own living, create their own households and forgo marriages based on economic necessity. Thousands of these students from Wellesley College and other educational institutions of the time, went on to become leaders in their fields and to change the face of public life in the United States and beyond. A little education goes a long way towards changing society. Similarly, education is going a long way towards changing the church.
With the opening of seminaries, schools of theology and faith formation programs to the laity in the decades since Vatican II, men and women are changing the church in historic ways. Never before in the history of the United States church has there existed such a theologically educated Catholic population and a lay-led church.
Lay people are now seminary professors, religious teachers and superintendents in Catholic schools, and participants in programs of theological and faith formation.
Today, you are more likely to see a woman in parish ministry than an ordained priest. The number of lay ministers, more than 30,000, has now surpassed the number of active diocesan priests. Of these lay ministers, women comprise 80 percent, according to the Lay Parish Ministers study conducted by the National Pastoral Life Center.
In 2008-9, there were more than 17,000 students enrolled in lay ecclesial ministry formation programs, according to the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA). In fact, CARA reports that the number of professional church ministry programs for laity has increased by more than 50 percent since its first study of lay ministry formation in 1985.
The face of our church is changing, diversifying and growing thanks, in part, to education.
But not everyone is happy about the increasing education of the laity. Many Catholics remember Bishop Robert Finn's closure of the nationally recognized lay formation program, New Wine, in the Kansas City-St. Joseph Diocese. However, it is just one of an increasing number of lay formation program closures and staff reductions by bishops.
In a 2009 report, CARA noted a 10 percent decline from its prior year's study in active lay ministry programs where two-thirds of program participants are women. Separately, CARA notes that the number of parish life coordinators, often women, declined from 553 in 2005 to 477 in 2008.
While budgetary reasons are often cited for such reductions, many believe that bishops take such actions due to ideological differences with the lay leadership, preferring programs or parishes coordinated by male priests or sometimes women religious whose theological views support former ministry models with less lay participation.
In fact, Bishop Patrick O'Donoghue of Lancaster in England has said that mass education has resulted in "sickness in the church and wider society" and cautions "every human endeavor has a dark side." (See: Educated Catholics have sown dissent and confusion in the Church, claims bishop.)
The fear-based actions and statements of bishops are reminiscent of the ominous warnings against women's education. In 1873 Dr. Edward Clark warned that "… a girl could study and learn, but she could not do all this and retain uninjured health. ..." In a December 1933 Atlantic Monthly article, the author proclaims "this whole business of educating the middle class girl is a tragic mistake."
I do believe education can be a dangerous thing: to fine china and to former modes of thinking. Luckily, time has proven that women's education doesn't break a society and time will prove that lay education only strengthens the body of Christ.
Nicole Sotelo is the author of Women Healing from Abuse: Meditations for Finding Peace, published by Paulist Press, and coordinates www.WomenHealing.com. A graduate of Harvard Divinity School, she currently works at Call To Action.
I do agree that education is
I do agree that education is wonderful and key to the Holy Spirit finding voice in the church. I do think two advisories are worth a mention: lay people should not equate education with actual professional employment opportunities. Taking on a huge educational debt in hopes that the Church will soon grow in justice and insight probably will be very discouraging. On the other hand the Church and the People of God are always served well by those who put forth more effort than required - and that includes educational effort.
I would also suggest that people seeking additional education first avoid those programs established by the diocese as ways of controlling adult education or formation. Masters of Arts in Ministry programs (such as the one in Boston)neither provide job opportunities nor real deep seated scholarship. It is little more than apologetics and ways for the diocese to raise money on the backs of lay people who will not be welcomed to the table even after they receive their degrees. (apart from just being mismanaged and broke - Boston is also terrifyingly clerical - in the face of what is purported to be a priest shortage - the bishop is firmly states that neither administrative nor even non sacramental pastoral work will ever officially be in the hands of lay people no matter their level of education). So go to school - learn and grow - but only because you love it. Love and the holy Spirit will eventually win the day.
Excellent article Nicole! I
Excellent article Nicole! I love that you brought up the staggering majority that lay women represent in terms of lay ministry programs. My mother runs the lay ministry program for our Diocese at home and can certainly testify to the work that women lay ministers have done in terms of maintaining Church ministries amidst declining priest numbers. Keep up the great work!
Thank you very much, Nicole.
Thank you very much, Nicole.
Thinking like this gives me hope that my little granddaughter and infant grandson will have the opportunity to grow into a mature, healthy Church rather than a decrepit, yet still adolescent church. Many blessings on your work and that of all your generation.
Aldus
"Never before in the history
"Never before in the history of the United States church has there existed such a theologically educated Catholic population and a lay-led church."
i admit i lol'd at that. especially since i've read comments on this very site from people claiming to have been educated in college level theology posting such intelligent gems like:
1. baptism doesn't put a permanent mark on the soul
2. denying the concept of original sin
3. vatican ii threw out indulgences
4. the sacraments were not instituted by christ
5. the species used for the eucharist don't matter
...
i could go on for pages.
Go on for pages, please, Pete
Go on for pages, please, Pete the Greek.
Because there are volumes of simplistic teachings which we learned in grammar school which are being re-evaluated by scholars in many disciplines. The 5 which you cite are ones that are particularly deserving of evaluation, because they have little solid scriptural references and they were postulated centuries AFTER the time of the apostles and early Christians based on slim scattered information and varied traditions.
An organization as important as the Roman Catholic Church must continue to evaluate its teachings based on new understandings in the areas of language (especially ancient languages of biblical times and the translations which followed), geography and political situations of biblical times, sources of practices from which our seven sacraments evolved; the history of the awarding of "indulgences" and the corruptions that arose from such teachings--especially upon the underclasses (Jesus favored peoples, by the way) and "I could go on forever."
The specific items you mention, Pete, are not a part of "the good news" that Jesus brought us. The Gospel message is that God loves each and every one of us WITHOUT EXCEPTION, UNCONDITIONALLY NO MATTER WHAT RULES WE FOLLOW OR NOT. That God is within each and everyone of us all the time whether we recognize it or not. That God does not, will not abandon any one of us (and I don't mean just Catholics or "Christians") no matter what we do.
THESE are what the study of theology tells us quite explicitly and unequivocally.
Aldus
so, let me get this
so, let me get this straight...
you deny original sin? odd, since that is one of the few catholic dogmas that can be proven just by looking at the world in general.
you deny baptism was instituted by christ? really? are you SURE you read scripture? i mean, either you missed large sections or just assume that the apostles are doing a lot of laundry for other people, WHILE they are still wearing the clothes that are to be washed.
you think that vatican ii did away with indulgences? funny, i guess you need to go back in time and lecture paul vi about how out of line he is for teaching this: "The doctrine and practice of indulgences which have been in force for many centuries in the Catholic Church have a solid foundation in divine revelation which comes from the Apostles and develops in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit"
you believe that the sacraments were NOT instituted by christ? you know, the teaching of trent wasn't overturned, right?
you think unleavend bread and wine are not the only things that can be used for the eucharist? are a snickers bar and a vodka tonic just as good? if not, why not?
"That God does not, will not abandon any one of us (and I don't mean just Catholics or "Christians") no matter what we do."
- since you seem to be the sola scriptura leaning type i found this funny, as it shows you quite obviously haven't read scripture.
Matthew 25: 41-46
"Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting."
you should also read the book of revelation. a lot of eternal punishment gets put out by god there. perhaps these theologians you mention have edited those parts out of your bible then?
back to basic catechism for you, sir.
A prime example of what Pete
A prime example of what Pete was trying to say. The Catholic Church's doctrine and teachings exist on the foundation of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Neither is superior to, or more important than, the other. Both are equally important, and the reality is that Sacred Tradition existed before Sacred Scripture was given its final form. This is a basic understanding I would expect all educated Catholics to have.
However, as seen from the above post, that understanding is missing. Aldus says that the five teachings Pete cited above were formulated centuries after the Apostles and have "little solid scriptural references". I would assume that Catholics understand that the Church does not base its teachings solely on Scripture, and, just because a teaching is not found specifically in Scripture, that does not mean that teaching is invalid. The Church does not believe and has never believed in the theory of "sola Scriptura".
On this very website, we can find people who do not believe in the divinely instituted ministry of the Pope. We can find individuals who do not believe in the absolute necessity of the ordained priesthood. We find people who say that one can disagree with fundamental truths of the Church and yet consider oneself an authentic and faithful Catholic. We can find people who deny the fact that Christ founded the Church (apparently, the Scriptural passage "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my CHURCH" is missing from their Bibles). We can find people here that would encourage us to compromise on issues of faith and morals for the sake of getting along in an increasingly secular age, this despite the examples of Christ and the Apostles and Martyrs who refused to compromise in the face of persecution, torture and death. If the blood of the martyrs is truly the seed of the Church, I suppose we should thank God daily that He did not call these folks to martyrdom.
We find people in America, supposedly "educated" Catholics, who do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, this despite 2000 years of consistent teaching on the truth of His Presence and the evidence of Christ Himself in the Gospel of John. We have people who do not practice their faith weekly, despite the commands of the Church, the commands of Christ, the practice and examples of the Apostles and the Church Fathers, etc. We have people who presume to walk into church sacristies and ask the priest "Do you want me to give out the bread or the wine?" NEITHER! They distribute the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ Himself. Yet, these are the "educated" people that the Ms. Sotelo points to.
Meanwhile, Aldus dismisses many of the ways in which Christ fulfills His promises and shows forth His love. The Eucharist is the manner in which Christ fulfills His promise that He will be with us "until the end of the world". The sacraments are the means by which God fills us with His grace, His life in us, to overcome evil and do good. Indulgences are means through which God showers us with His infinite mercy. The indelible mark on our soul made at Baptism means that we become grafted into the Body of Christ and, no matter the sins we may commit or how many times we walk away from God, by our Baptism we are promised that He will never leave us, because we are part of His body, forever.
There is much that should be debated in the Church, I agree. How ought we to care for the poor and the needy? How ought we to evangelize an increasingly secular world? How ought we to encourage those who have fallen away to return? How ought we to encourage good and holy young men to answer God's call to the priesthood? How ought we to preserve, protect and defend human life in all its forms, but most especially in the guise of the innocent unborn child and the elderly patient who cannot speak for themselves? How ought we transform our world to help bring about the Kingdom here on earth?
These are the questions we as laity are charged with answering by the Second Council of the Vatican and the Church. We are NOT charged with debating established truth and established teachings. On those counts, we are called, challenged, to embrace the adventure of fidelity and humility.
Nicole every time you write
Nicole every time you write in these pages you continually wave the CTA flag and try to herald a life lived in clear contradiction to Catholic Moral teaching. Its the NCR Editors decision to publish and I respect that. However, i draw the l;ine when you attack ground breaking approaches to Catholic Education. I personally have read the document that Bishop Patrick O'Donoghue of Lancaster in England has read and find that your appraisal of it way off the mark. For those interested there is a lot of information available on the Lancaster Diocese website of Bishop Patrick O'Donoghue of Lancaster in England- you will also note that he prominently sponsors a link concerning the Pope's new Encyclical as well; here it is: http://www.lancasterdiocese.org.uk/
Peace and understanding in Christ Jesus-God come in the flesh...
Snowdrop, I suggest that
Snowdrop,
I suggest that before you look for the splinter in the views of these young people that you visit an opthamologist to find a log of blindness.
Peace and understanding - the understanding that can only be slowly seen by listening to the Spirit that is ever present for each and every on of us.
R. Dennis Porch, MD
Dennis I have heard the
Dennis I have heard the comment about listening to the Spirit that is ever present in each of us many times, that is why St Paul emphasised the critical importance of discernment of the spirits. Bells should go off when a Catholic finds that the "Spirit" is in universal agreement with all of our positions on issues. After all. the Pope is the only one that is infallible with respect to faith and morals under specifically defined circumstances. Complimenting this on the other hand is the official teachings of the Church embodied in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is objectively true teaching. Always remember the Spirit, the Blood and Water. Praised be Jesus-God come in the flesh for not leaving us orphans and establishing his Catholic Church!
Dear Snowdrop, It is
Dear Snowdrop,
It is interesting to me that the pope and magisterium make such foolish comments about scientific issues- comments that can be in no way infallible. Have you read the questions that Hans Kung has asked about infallibility? It seems to me that these are being answered much to the chagrin to some people that believe to be Catholic means to be led as sheep in blind faith.
No, the Holy Spirit is with us each of us. Discernment is also for each of us not just the clergy. It is in discernment that we begin to understand that we have a very bad leadership crisis in our Church!
May the Spirit give you and I more peace, more understanding, and more decrement for the Church leaders certainly need a wider input.
I'm grateful for your
I'm grateful for your comments, Nicole, recognizing the value of education for women and how far women have come with the power of education, especially within the church.
I was one of the first grandchildren to obtain a college education (and that at the age of 35 with my goal to become a hospital chaplain). I then pursued continuing education within psychology, theology and spirituality within a diocesan program for lay people in ministry.
As I experienced ministry, I came to recognize the controls put in place to maintain the institutional system within the Catholic Church. However, I beat to a different drum and found ways to more freely experience my identity as a woman within ministry (with other lay people and experiences of creativity). Now I contribute my dissenting beliefs to maturity as I have grown through formal education, life experiences and reflection.
James Fowler has written at length about the developmental stages for spiritual formation and the journey towards hopefully a balanced personal integration. Of course, National Catholic Reporter provides much input for growing in loving relationships with self, others and God.
Really provocative. My
Really provocative. My minimal physics is likely flawed but the analogy might be illustrative: Energy is finite, it can be converted, captured and directed but not destroyed. Close? Ms Sotelo's article made me think of the comparison of "energy management" and "laity/women". It also made me think of how this relates to the "investigation" of women religious leadership and the "visitation" of congregations.
For centuries, the (male) hierarchy has been able to contain, direct and control women as energy. Women were a raw resource to be shaped, in some cases trained, and directed as conveniece suggested. There was, as one might continue the analogy, little if any "exhaust" or "feedback" and what little "leakage" that emerged could be contained and even recycled (as in the old turbo engines)to the benefit of the hierarchical purpose. That original purpose was always determined by the "engine" the pastor, the bishop....
In the case of women religious they were house-keepers for clergy and hierarchy, housekeepers for missionaries, "infrastructure" one might say for the hierarchy directly and indirectly for their sisters in 'higher" calllings. In the "higher callings" they were hospital administrators, nurses, teachers, school administrators, and in many other ways "door mats" for hierarchical purposes. THEY WERE THE EQUIVALENT OF COLD FUSION for the church - effective, efficient, cheap energy to keep the ship moving, expanding with little maintainance or danger of explosion.
Two quick points from this analogy:
1. In realizing their "self-directing" potential this resource has become correspondingly "problematic" for the hierarchical management even as it increased its relevance to the Christ of creation. "Feedback" in the evolutionary and even in the physics sense affects the whole dynamic process, but when the "process" is not dynamic, when it intrinsically rejects the possibility of genuine feedback...explosive dissolution....and search for an alternative mechanisms to regain the fullness of control (read "visitation" and "investigation").
2. The second insight I glean from this analogy is really a question. The diminution of women religious numbers is incontestable, but, I ask, is it a diminution in the religiousness of women? Statistically, one might look at whether the diminution of nun's numbers is reflected in the wider population of women who serve Christ, even the church. By far the larger percentage of "volunteers" and paid church employees are women. Are they less religious because they are not vowed "chaste" and "obedient" to bishops? Are women less relevant then when "nunnery" was in flower? Even non-statistically, are women less or more religious, and spiritually religious, because the number of specifically dedicated nuns diminish? Should the church become more "sensitive", "nurturing" and "hearing" or shoule they seek greater control?
In conclusion, I would wish for a "flowering" of women religious. I for one need you, appreciate you, despite my youthful experiences. To chat, to discuss, to debate, to dialogue, to relate to a women religious, who is consecrated, dedicated to Christ and to christly ways and who does not see me as an obstacle, is a love experience that, I, as a male (of almost 70) would cherish. Women generally would benefit equally, I think, but to go back to being an "ore body"? No flippin way.
Super analogy!
Super analogy!
Ms. Sotelo: In your last
Ms. Sotelo:
In your last column, “Don’t tell the pope”, you dismissed the the ordained clergy as being “a limited group of men commissioned within the context of a particular socio-political and religious order” who existence was inconsistent with the more informal practices of the early Church.
Now you approvingly inform us that, “The number of lay ministers, more than 30,000, has now surpassed the number of active diocesan priests” and that “Of these lay ministers, women comprise 80 percent…”
Was leadership in the primitive pristine Church of your imagination similarly limited to females with a B.A. in lay ministry?
Dear Anonymous of Jul. 09,
Dear Anonymous of Jul. 09, 2009
What Nicole was/is writting about is not from her imagination! When Pope Pius XII, gave permission to Catholic biblical scholars to freely pursue their scriptural studies in conjunction with other Christian scholars---the Catholic world had a deeper understanding of both the Hebrew (or Old Testament) and the Christian (or New Testament). By the way, the publication of the Jerusalem Bible was the fruit of this combined effort of both Catholic and multi-Christian denomination scholarship.
While the uncovering of scriptures was being done, so was a deeper examination of Christian life in the early Centuries of Christianity. In the Law-Free (non Jewish--no circumcision required to become Jewish first, then Christian) Communities established by Paul and Barnabas---the services were held in homes. The presiders of the breaking of the bread (the Lord's Meal---the Eucharist) were often women.
This is acknowledged by Paul in his letter to the Romans. In the 16th chaper, he lists all those who he wishes to greet and thank for all they had done for the Christian community and for him, Paul, personally. In his greeting, Paul mentions almost 30 people more people tha he greets in any of this other letters. About a third of the people that he greets are women, highlighting the important role women played in Paul's ministry and in the leadership of the early church. If you wish to examine this yourself, it is at the beginning of the 16th Chapter of The Letter to the Romans.
Not only here, but in so many other places, women were prominent in the worship and leadership of the early Church. Nicole is not conjuring this up from her imagination.
What "primitive pristine
What "primitive pristine Church"?
Read scripture and some of the non-canonical documents of the times, and you'll discover the primitive church was anything but "pristine."
Very much like the church today. Lots of controversy and disagreement. But not nearly the amount of "stuff" that we see emanating from today's hierarchs.
Knowledge is power, and lay power is, indeed, dangerous to the powers-that-be.
Good article, Ms. Sotelo!!!
Well said Nicole. Neil
Well said Nicole.
Neil Chapman, New Zealand
According to Vatican II (and
According to Vatican II (and Church tradition), the proper role of the laity is to evangelize the world in the work place. Those who state that Vatican II "empowered the laity" to be pastoral associates are mistaken. I find it ironic that many of the readers of NCR withhold donations and encourage others to withhold donations to parishes and dioceses. Well, when there is no money, guess what programs get cut??
Dear Anonymous of Jul. 11,
Dear Anonymous of Jul. 11, 2009
Sorry to inform you, but you are mistaken in stating that "those who state that Vatican II "empowered the laity" to be pastoral associates are mistaken."
Actually, the documents of Vatican II, Canon Law and a series of pastoral letters written by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB)
beginning in 1980 to 2005, support lay ministry---and the ministry of pastoral associates.
Let me elucidate: In 'Lumen Gentium' (9-17), we see that the people of God transcends the laity-hierarchy dualism, and it points to the communality and solidarity of a single people. Within this one people are functions, ministries, charisms, and religious vocations, but no special status or separate classes. The people of God's common existence as a people precedes and underlies all distinctiion based on office or ministry or gift.
The people of the "new covenant" all share in the threefold ministry an mission of Christ (LG 10-13). All of the baptized are consecrated as a holy priesthood, they all share in Christ's prophetic mission, and everyone assists in gathering humankind into this "new and universal people of the children of God." And actually the lay members of the Christian faithful actually perform most of the teaching, sanctifying and ruling within this people of God---even though to the casual observer, those functions are associated with the ordained ministers.
From Canon Law (1993) there are three canons which frame the involvement of the laity in the pastoral role of the Church.
Canon 230 art. 3, which states that where the needs of the Church require and there are not sufficient numbers of the ordained, lay people, may exercise the ministry of the Word, preside over liturgical prayers, confer Baptism and distribute Communion, in accordance with the provisions of the law.
Canon 517 states that, where circumstances require, the pastoral care of a parish, can be deligated by the bishop to a lay moderator to exercise the pastoral care of the people. A priest moderator is to be designated by the bishop to supervise the pastoral care.
Canon 519 states that lay ministers, with the authorization of the bishop, may carry out the offices of teaching, sanctifying and governing with the cooperation of other priests and deacons, according to the law.
In other words, the laity may be delegated to perform certain liturgical and sacramental functions which were formerly reserved to priests.
The USCCB enlarged upon these document dealing with lay ministry with pastorals, which are:
1) 1980 "Called and Gifted" which commemorated the 50th anniversary of Vatican II's "Decrees on the Apostolate of the Laity". In this document the bishops stated that as a episcopal conference, it is their duty to study and examine how both ordained and lay members of Christ's faithful understand their roles and ministries as complementary, and their purposes joined to the one mission and ministry of Jesus Christ.
2) 1997--"Instruction on Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the Non-ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of the Priest." This raised a number of questions from eight discasteries of the Holy See which were: the Congregation for the clergy, Pontifical Council for the Laity, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (this came from our current pope), Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Congregation for Bishops, Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, and the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts.
3) 1999 from the Subcommittee on Lay Ministry,came the "Lay Ecclesial Ministry: The State of the Questions" which placed the preparations of lay ecclesial ministers into a document format alongside the two other documents from the USCCB "Program of Priestly Formation" and the "National Directory for the Formation, Life and Ministry of Permanent Deacons in the United States".
4) 2005 "Co-Workers in the Vineyard of the Lord" addressed the concerns of the eight dicasteries (1997) and fulfilled the documents of the Second Vatican Council. It stated the doctrinal and theological teachings, and the guidance offered for recruiting, training, and authorizing lay ecclesial ministers--pastoral associates and coordinators of parish life.
The background of pastoral associates in not a misreading of the Documents of Vatican Council II. The documentation on this role is well researched and documented.
As someone working on a
As someone working on a degree in lay ministry from Loyola-New Orleans it heartens me to see such a brilliant explanation of when and where lay ministry takes place. Until you replied I was in a tizzy worrying about how 'dangerous' my program of study might make me :-)!
If that English Bishop really
If that English Bishop really believes that college level educations in theology, ministry & Catholic philosophy, etc are bad for the Church, then likewise they are bad for all Catholics, not just laity!
Yet who are the most highly theologically educated of all??
The hierarchy, of course!!
Yes, all that Church education hasn't stopped any of their deliberate & repeated coverups of criminal wrongdoing by their colleagues or subordinates in the areas of sexual immorality or financial mismanagement, etc.
In that sense, the good Bishop is correct, even if that was not his original implication...
To Adul...your statement
To Adul...your statement "WITHOUT EXCEPTION, UNCONDITIONALLY NO MATTER WHAT RULES WE FOLLOW OR NOT" is not true in the least.
"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified" (Rom. 2:13).
"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments . . . (Heb. 10:26-27).
The Bible is clear that yes...rules DO matter. The doers of the law WILL be justified. I suggest you learn your faith because you sound less like a Catholic then anything else.
Dear Joel, Should we all
Dear Joel,
Should we all begin with Leviticus? Lots of rules to memorize there, but then I would not be able to partake of my local seafood restaurants. Oh, well what other laws can I find that would infringe on me or others in ways that make such good sense. Yet, what about good sense? What about laws that do not make good sense? No matter we obey them anyway just as do obedient sheep led to.... by those that know THE LAW because THE LAW is always truthful. Yes that’s it the law is always truthful, did Jesus say that? Why did He come anyway? Oh yes, it was to give us canon law. Yeh, that’s it, Jesus came so that man could make more laws! Did we get that straight? No more cafeteria Catholics, we just pay, obey and pray. That is the law, isn’t it?
Dear Joel the Seminarian, In
Dear Joel the Seminarian,
In any of Paul's letters (and Romans is one of them), he unconditionally condemns those who would place the Jewish Law---with all of its precriptions over the law given by Christ. Paul tells us that this law kills, but the spirit gives life. In the Chapter 1 of Romans, Paul clearly critizes those who presume to judge others---because in doing so----they condemn themselves. The letter to the Romans, speaks clearly about NOT being tied to the Law (the Law of Israel---with all of its tenets). Paul is not speaking about Canon Law or about the Catechism of the Catholic Church, here, Joel, which you seem to tie into these biblical quotes.
The general theme of the Letter to the Hebrews is the general good news of salvation. And it states that while, we can not hide from our "just penalities" for our individual sins, that God offers us salvation from from our sins through Jesus Christ.
The Good News of the Gospels (and Aldus referred to it) is very simple: We cannot hide from God but because of Jesus Christ entering our world, we don't have to.
If you are preparing to become a priest and plan to go about becoming a Catholic Pharasee Priest---you will drive even more people away from Christ, than bring them to him.
I suggest strongly that you study well the Documents of Vatican II, then look at Canon Law, especially the rights of the laity (yes they do have them), and then read the Catechism of the Catholic Church--it is not a club to beat people over the head with "the Law". And throughout this time, meditate on Sacred Scriptures and allow Jesus to operate within you.
littlebear, i could be
littlebear,
i could be mistaken, but i think joel was responding to what looked like in aldus' post to be something close to 'good works and evil works are meaningless and have no effect on salvation' outlook of many protestant sects. at least that's the way it looked to me. hence the quotes dealing with works from scripture.
i don't think he was saying that paul was a canon lawyer or something like that.
btw, are you judging him and calling him a pharisee? what happened to "judge not"?
Dear Pete, the Greek My
Dear Pete, the Greek
My comments were about Joel's remarks that "laws do matter." Yes, they do. But the main law that Jesus gave was about loving God with our whole heart, mind, soul and body and loving others as we love ourselves."
Paul's comments to the Christian communities (which were "Law-free"---meaning free of the Jewish law of circumcision and other mandated laws), frequently enjoined the people to adheare to Christ's commands, rather than the prescriptions handed down by the Jewish hierarchy.
I don't believe that either Aldus or Joel stated that St. Paul was a canon lawyer. But a great number of our hierarchy do have their major degrees in canon law. And because of that, the general Catholic population is seeing more and more insistence upon obedience to the law. A law, by the way, that is written, promulgated and enforced by the same group. There is no separation of powers. Nor does this group tolerate any 'policing' of its actions.
At no point did I call Joel a pharasee. But is does seem to me that you are
calling Aldus a---protestant (of all things). Although, Pete, you probably know that Protestants do go to heaven, also. It is up to God to admit people to God's heavenly home----heaven doesn't "belong" to the Catholic Church.
"...heaven doesn't "belong"
"...heaven doesn't "belong" to the Catholic Church." This applies also to caritas et veritas.
Digital communication enables greater possibilities for the spread of truth and love, and for a deeper participation in Church, as testified here on ncronline. Enlarged consciousness enlarges hope for all — a taste of heaven.
Post new comment