A challenge to old progressives

"couldn’t find one where they were being fed in mind and heart."
Sometimes we have to do the feeding. Sometimes we have to there for others. I must confess I find the most sustaining experience going to church is at the coffe hour that follows when I met others struggling as I am. Christ may come to me in the Eucharist but is over the donuts I "meet" Him.

Well said, Jamie.

"The more the institutional church starves us, the greater the call should be for us to feed one another by breaking bread together -- literally and symbolically." This is beautiful.

Engaging with younger people who are willing to think beyond the institutional Church might be a growth process for older people whose dearest hope is that the institutional Church will change. (Not that all older Catholics think that way--but for those who do.) I love your vision of the generations breaking bread together and supporting one another in being Church.

I am a senior citizen and called a "wounded Catholic" by my lady friend. I believe the assessment by Jamie is very accurate. I think it is hopless for the older generation to continue fighting for reform of the Catholic Church. The Rottweilor has chosen all the bishops for the last 30 years. They are canon lawyers and not pastors.

Hi Jamie:
You state:"The Catholic church in the West will begin to shrink into a sect of strictly observant believers."

You're being too kind.

It will shrink into cult of "worship of liturgy". They are already arguing about how long must a fiddle back chasuble should be. Some gospel values eh?

Just go over to some of these conservative sites and you will get a belly full of liturgy worshiping hateful "young Catholics". They remind me of door knocking Jehovah Witnesses. These Catholics will not be taken any more seriously either.

It's the next conclave that counts. Open up the windows of the church, introduce priests who are pastoral and interested in their parishoners, not rubrics. Get rid of the culture of secrecy, clericalism and liturgy worship and people will be knocking down the doors. Young people are hungry and are looking. I know because they tell me. The cults just don't cut it for most.

Jamie, THANK YOU!!! I'm one of the "old progressives" you write about (yikes!) and you are right on target. Your citing of the "commitment to social service and to creating a just society", is the heart of Vatican II, in my opinion. Getting back to the church in its beginnings is a noble goal. For this we pray.

I agree with Jamie. And any person, young or old, who seeks fellowship in the Spirit is invited to our house church which meets monthly in a private home in Kansas City, MO. We share breakfast, liturgy, and a discussion on the third Saturday of each month. I guess we are old progressives. But we are young in spirit, eager for justice and inclusiveness wherever there isn't any, and willing to share our joys and sorrows with each other as Church. My email address is janellelaz@aol.com. Write to me if you are interested in looking us over . We would welcome you

Where will they find their spiritual home? Where will they find community in a time when face-to-face socialization is quickly disappearing? Where will they find guidance that will help them make meaning during times of sorrow and loss? Where will their values and ethics be challenged and molded so that they can find resources to help them make their marriages work and raise their children?

If they like Liturgy, the Episcopal church.
If they like Praise and Worship music, a large non-denominational.
If they are looking for a family, a small house church.

I fear the era of young Catholic progressives is quickly closing.

There are numerous voluntary organizations within the Catholic milleau founded in the Spirit of Vatican II that promote Jesus Christ thru respect for social justice including sacramental and gender equality within ecclesial institutions. These organizations favor the ordination of women and the inclusion of married priests while maintaining an option for mandatory celibacy especially in the tradition of monastic orders. These groups are neither sexist nor homophobic. These groups should talk. They should, if not already, be laisons to each other. They should communicate about the possibility of implementing their impossible dreams with timelines attached.
They should coordinate a national gathering and invite Jimmy Carter and any Vatican II Sister, married priest, and gay Bishop to speak about The Possibility of the Impossible Dream of Christ and how we can turn from failure to faith. Many may need to hear how faith Jesus, and Jimmy Carter style, can come true for the thousands who are jaded from dancing with deceit.
Additionally, there are many protestant "high-church" liturgies that are similar to Catholic liturgies, Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist etc. Maybe a day of Atonement (At-one-ment) could be a great earth- moving-collective-transition-day in the near future. Maybe one day there will be a mass exodus "out" and great merger "in" with other like-minded religious bodies. Maybe, just maybe, soon, young, old, oppressed, and disenfranchised will, if they so choose, break the shackles of spiritual exile and walk with gratitude and grace into a newer and much Truer Home.

Jamie, as you claim to be highly intelligent, you would readily admit that this generation has no connection to the Church precisely because of the actions of that group of progressives who came of age in the 50s and 60. They did not fight for the soul of the Church but rather fought to rid the Church of its soul (Jesus Christ) and replace Him with modernism and relativism.

A young faithful Catholic who is disgusted by you "young voices."

Sign me up, Jamie! Since I'm about to attend my 50th high school reunion (in Berkeley, CA), I guess that makes me an "old" progressive. I'm more than happy to help with what you suggest.

Actually, we (all ages) know a lot more than we think we do about creating authentic faith communities, and we can also learn a lot from the First Century churches. They met in homes -- what an idea! Doing this today would provide the more intimate-sized group where each person can know and be truly known. So different from the "audience-sized" parishes we've experienced.

Now for the "unthinkable" thought (recall, in Acts 10-11, Peter seeing a sheet of 'unclean' animals descending from heaven, and the Spirit inviting him to "eat"-- a truly unthinkable thought for him until that moment): House churches following the First C. model could also *elect* their own presiders at the Eucharist. We've been taught that only an ordained priest can preside...yet the young church grew and prospered quite wonderfully for three (or some would say 12) centuries, before ordination as we know it today was developed.

So my short response to your thoughtful article is, for young and "old" hungry Catholics alike: "We are the people we have been waiting for!" Let's launch the dialogue, and see where the Spirit leads!

I have often wondered why the quite sizable, educated, and wealthy cohort of progressive Catholics did not seek the emergence of a new model of church. I'm sure the self-righteous legion would welcome the departure, and maybe we could all move on with life following Christ, leaving the shouting matches and put-downs to those who just can't be happy without them.

What a perfect partner piece to Eugene Cullen Kennedy's "Sermon on the Mount". As someone whose faith came alive because of Vatican II, I long to break bread with the others in the cafeteria--if I could only find it.

I think the older progressives are the problem. You write: "Unlike the generations of progressive Catholics who came of age in the 1950s and 1960s, young Catholics are not willing to fight for the soul of the church. The church has lost its influence over the consciences of new generations. Our imaginations were not formed by its rituals..."

The reason is that the rituals of the progressives are too anemic to form anyone's imaginations.

You continue: "As a result, many of the symbols of the Catholic church, most especially the priesthood, the parish, and the Mass, have lost their power for many young Catholics. Though these symbols are dying out, the need for the meaning, ethical guidance, and spiritual development embodied in the symbols is stronger than ever." These symbols aren't simply dying out. So-called progressives have spent 50 years attacking these symbols, which, nonetheless, will survive. The Church has survived worse, more serious threats than progressives. We'll be okay.

This is a great article. Succinct and to the point without placing blame on any faction within the Church; it's what the RCC needs. I hope it hears and understands.

I'm old enough to remember the Church pre VII; the enthusiasm with which VII was received and the re-invigoration that most felt as VII changes were insituted.

I really do not know where all the nostalgia is coming from; especially for the Latin Mass, Benediction, and Adoration. There just were not that many people who went to Benediction and Adoration (I was there an often lot as an altar server and seldom needed more than two hands to count the people in a 800 seat Church). As for the Latin Mass, I don't remember one person being strongly against it; rather I remember most welcoming a Mass thay could understand better.

Even in my youth at the height of post WWII Roman Catholicism and pre VII, the principal Marian devotion of the Rosary was declining rapidly. During my teens my father was very active in a very active chapter of the Serra Club which was local diocesean men promoting vocations. After a number of years it fell apart as vocations began to disappear (mostly pre VII). On a number of times, I was at the meetings as a gofer; if anything, the discussions and explanations of the priestly vocation were a huge turn-off. I had real trouble trying to understand what the appeal was if you wanted to use your own brain as we were being taught to do in Catholic school at the time.

I paint these pictures and write these recollections because the simple solution and common belief among too many today is that VII almost destroyed the Church and if we go back to practices before VII we can save the Church. This is plain gibberish. And as we all should know; unless we properly define the problem, the solution will fail.

VII almost brought the laity into full Communion with the Church in all its many various aspects and practices. Then it was sidetracked. I believe it being sidetracked, especially beginning with JP2 and continuing for decades, is repsonsible for many of the RCC's trouble today.

However, it is very important to take a longer look at history and ask other questions. For example, why were there not 1 but 2 World Wars in the 20th Century between Catholic countries in a Catholic Europe who both claimed "God" was on their side. This was the "God" of the RCC. The RCC was still a very vibrant, important part of daily life and politics then. Did these wars and the resulting social devastation and disruption lead to VII? If we simply re-create nostalagic practices will it help society and civilization to avoid another World War? History appears to say "No" quite loudly and firmly.

I don't have a problem bringing back older devotions and practices as long as they are not mandated and remain voluntary and do not compete to be better than another. One merely has to try and track down and list the many different practices and devotions of the various religious orders that exist today in the Church to realize that the Church allows and fosters variety within its religious side. Why can it not also foster variety within its lay side?

If we accept the simple premise that VII started the decline of the RCC; I strongly believe that our situation will only get worse. There already is a defacto schism within the RCC as more and more Catholics ignore what comes from Rome and go forth to practice their Faith on, essentially, their own.

Some critics claim this to be Protestanism and suggest these Catholics join a Protestant Church. This reflects a mis-understanding of what their action means. They want to remain Catholic; they are fervent Catholics whose disappointment in Rome, the hierarchy and its nefarious actions is viewed by them as a definite threat to their true Catholic Faith and, ultimately their salvation. They are following the one and only path that they believe is open to them while hoping against Hope that Rome comes to the Truth and begins to take matters seriously. It is a classic case of praying for those who persecute you while never in your wildest imagination thinking your Chief Persecutor on Earth would be Rome and the Catholic Hierarchy.

To the best of my knowledge, whenever the RCC found itself in deep trouble, it called a Council. Now, let's quickly acknowledge that not every Council was successful or even executed in good faith. There is a lot of very solid understanding and suggestions in Jamie's article. Perhaps an existing organization can call a discussion meeting to examine her ideas in more detail because the RCC as we know it is disappearing before our very eyes. And being the cynic that I am sometimes accused of being, as the trouble deepens it won't take Rome long to issue instructions that make the situation worse and cast it in stone for hundreds of years as the previous two great splits illustrate. (Eastern Orthodox and Reformation)

Jamie,
Thank you for that insightful essay! My husband and I raised four children in the faith and we relied heavily on our parish community for spiritual and emotional support. However, the pre-Vatican II trend that our church is taking has forced us to look outside the box for a more palatable way to worship. I started an intentional eucharistic community about two years ago that meets monthly for home masses. You can read my article about it on this website: rentapriest.com. Click on the highlighted CITI Special Report on the left and scroll down to Testimonials for CITI Ministries. The website also gives excellent information as to why canon law permits a married priesthood. You may also find it helpful to go intentionaleucharisticcommunities.org to learn more about small faith communities. Thanks so much for sharing the views of many young Catholics out there. I have faith in God and in all of you to keep the church alive as it is meant to be!

Judy Lorenz

Thankfully there is a cadre of married prists out there that will become more significant in the lives of the searching Catholics - both young and old.

"In many ways, they are already doing the work of the church. But what is lacking is a real sense of how to build and sustain community, which is essential to their spiritual health and support."

Instead of a career with health insurance and benefits, our highly educated daughter, is making crepes and serving the people at Good Girls Go to Paris Crepes, across the street from the Detroit Institute Of Arts.

Three weeks ago, my husband and I had breakfast at this wonderful place, while listening to a virtuosa play the harp, and watching our daughter in her pretty hair snood and black dress, serving us, and the people, and I thought of Dorothy Day.

We had just sung a Mass at The Sweetest Heart of Mary Catholic Church, chanting Magnum Mysterium and Locus Iste, and here was Christina, doing the work of the Lord. The Spirit moves where She will.

Thank you, Jamie.

Thank you, Jamie, for this thought-provoking essay. As one of the "older progressives" in our Catholic family, I read your encouraging--and challenging--words with renewed hope and optimism for the future of our faith community. Many of us, not just the youngest among us, are finding no "spirit and life" in the style of leadership that has overtaken the implementation of Vatican II in the life of the Church.

I teach as an adjunct at a University which has a strong adult learning program for working professionals. I teach Religious Studies and Ethics courses. I teach the young people you describe in your essay, for whom the Church holds no attraction...and yet, in a strange way, they are deeply spiritual and, when you get to know them, have a deep hunger for God.

My experience is very much the same as your friend teaching young students at a Catholic university: when we talk about God and faith, and I am asked why I remain a man of faith...you can hear a pin drop! They are all ears! Thank you for this essay, Jamie...you give me great hope.

What a great piece, Jamie. You articulate so well the reality as it is down here in Australia as well. Many thanks - and keeping telling it like it is.

Ms. Manson, I read your article and I do understand your concerns about how to move the Church forward. However, I believe the issues lying at the heart of the crisis today stem from a moving away from the devotional practices you mentioned before, i.e., Eucharistic Adoration and devotion to Our Lady. There is a core of young people (myself included) who unwaver in their love for Our Eucharistic Lord and Our Blessed Mother. The reason that is so is because when we approach the Eucharist, we do encounter Jesus Himself! Receiving Him frequently in Holy Communion, and spending time with Him in adoration allows one to enter into a personal relationship with Him. Praying the Rosary, as I do daily, is another source of strength that helps me live a more authentic, Catholic Christian life, because Mary keeps me close to her Son. The Holy Spirit then is given more freedom to work in our souls to understand why the Church teaches as she does. The problem is not what the Church teaches; but rather HOW it is taught! Perhaps in past generations the teachings of the Church were handed down by means of an "iron fist" mentality, and the need for a more pastoral approach is warranted (as John Paul II has done with Theology of the Body). But the authentic teaching has to be preserved; it cannot become expendable to suit the "modern age", because truth does not change. If that core of young people, with the grace and strength they receive from the Sacraments and love for Our Lady, share it with those around them, the ranks of the alienated, slowly but surely, will lessen and the ranks of the core young people will grow, because the Love and Truth they have encountered in Christ will attract others to seek it as well. What truly fuels the life of the core young is Love and Truth, Jesus Himself. It does not make life easier, but we know Christ carries our cross with us; that is the message we must share with all the world. God Bless you and Mary keep you.
P.S. I am a full time Social Worker saying these things.

I never cease to be amazed at how NCR columnists along with many of the ilk of "young Catholic women with graduate degrees in theology from ivy-league divinity schools" ignore the efforts of progressive Catholic groups to organize away from Rome and the Magisterium. These include, but are not limited to, the Ecumenical Catholic Communion, Intentional Eucharistic Communities, Womenpriests, any number of independent Catholic parishes, and so on. Tom Roberts goes in search of "The Emerging Church" but it is clear from what is and isn't covered in his journey that it's really about "The Emerging Church (of Rome)."

Yet there are progressive groups meeting in homes, meeting in rented facilities, and yes, purchasing and / or building parishes.

It would seem that "young Catholic women with graduate degrees in theology from ivy-league divinity schools" are living in the right time and place to emerge as leaders of the Church of tomorrow, with or without the permission of the Pontiff.

"Where will they find their spiritual home?"

I think they will be ok.

Some may seek out the progressive Episcopelians, Lutherans and Presbyterians. Others may join progressive LCWR communities, either as vowed members or associates.

About time some of the people writing these comments including the author actually thought about what it the Catholic Church actually IS. The Church is the Body of Christ instituted for the Salvation of Souls. As Jesus is the way the truth and the life so therefore is the Church.

It is not a group of people gathered together for the breaking of bread. It is God's own institution on Earth.

Those of you who do not understand this should start thinking about it.

P

I am young at heart in my 70's and I find a great deal to identify with in your piece. I have spent a fair amount of time struggling with the parish and the diocese where I live. I find is no satisfaction apart from the community I have built in the struggle. Your comments about joining with the younger believers who need the experience of community strikes me as right on and perhaps a new focus of my Christian vocation.

Wait -- why would I entrust the future of the Church to the same "Old Progressives" that so poorly passed on the faith to me and my generations?

For goodness sakes Jaimie. You and your highly educated "..Ivy-league divinity schools" friends need to stop blaming the institutional Church for their spiritual angst and lack of "nourishment."

It's faults are well documented and some simply indefenseable. However, if one can't find Jesus Christ or God's grace in any simple Catholic Church sanctuary or their own marriage or any of the multitude of pro life, pro-labor, pro human services, pro immigrant, pro health care, pro-housing, pro-family, Catholic school, pro-prison ministries, and prayer groups activities that exist within 20 miles of almost any urban location, you are not only not trying to find God, you are actively fighting God's grace.

If people can find faith and our true God in Holocausts, famines, and Inquisitons, they can certainly find God in Staten Island. Read any of the later books by Christoper Lasch starting with the Culture of Narcissism or even Caritas in Veritas to see what troubles your friends and our society.

Did you ever think their boredom and lack of faith might be caused by our culture which is saturated by consumerism, secularism, libertarism, and elitism? Please put more of your energy in fighting our "progressive" culture, rather than your Church.

Well said Jaime. John Allen looks to an "inner core of practicing Catholics" to save the Church, echoing, as usual, the curial types he hangs out with in Rome. His "core" are obedient souls whose families still live in a pre-Vatican II world, Benedict XVI's so-called "purified remnant." There are still a lot of such people. They watch EWTN and send their children to such as Ave Maria University and Steubenville or are Catholic simply because of ethnocentic identification with their parents' "tribe." But most Catholics are like your young friends who married on Staten Island. I have four or five nephews and neices and cousins who have married in the last few years. All were raised Catholic by devout parents and all went to Catholic schools. All, every one, chose not to be married in the Church, their first major choice in adulthood (see the official Catholic directory re the decline in Catholic marriages). All are devout and spiritual and motivated by a love for others and making a better world. But they are nauseated by a Church which is run as a nonresponsive medieval monarchy, which oppresses women and constantly attacks gays and could care less about your views or those of any other lay Catholics. (Most bishop's websites don't even have a "contact me" e-mail -- and deliberately so.) Such a church will not survive the next half century. Jesus and his message will survive, but the Church as ancient sclerotic institution will not, John Allen and his curial pals notwithstanding.

The problem I have with this analysis is that the progressives, at least on the ground in the United States, have had a fairly large influence since Vatican II, with that influence at its peak in the 1970s and 80s. Neither a more modern, "flexible" (to put it kindly) liturgy nor a pastoral style that completely ignores duty, sin etc... have boosted vocations and statistically speaking has not kept people from leaving the church (much less brought them in).

This is not to say that "conservatives" have all the answers, either. There is some truth to what you say about insularity and an excessive emphasis on liturgy, but it is a wild exaggeration. The successes I see are with groups like FOCUS, who have done a great deal to revive Catholic life on non-Catholic college campuses, as well as the many programs that have created a circle of networking and spirituality for Catholic young adults. That simply was not there when the "progressives" were running things.

If all parties were honest, they'd admit that the issue is how to live as a Catholic in the modern world. Conservatives sometimes risk isolating themselves, while liberals tend are too willing to adopt all of the tenets of the modern world. Nobody has all the answers or even close to all of the answers to this question. A frank admission of that may be painful, but in the long run more productive.

Setting aside the tendentious (very straw-man-ish) wisecrack about "absolute subservience" to the apostles' successors, your question is: "What about the other baptized Catholics? What happens to them?"

The answer differs according to the definition of the word "other." The new crowd of believers against whom "others" are contrasted have two distinct attributes: Orthodoxy and Traditionalism. So "other" can mean "other than orthodox" or it can mean "other than traditional."

So do you mean "other" as in "folk who aren't trying particularly hard to follow Jesus Christ, and/or think they understand the moral law better than the apostles, saints, martyrs, confessors, and doctors?"

Or do you mean "other" as in "folk who are personally more comfortable with post-1965 innovations in liturgical and devotional styles, and culturally alienated from the pre-1965 ones?"

If you meant the latter kind of "other," then the answer is obvious: The Church, in all her charity, will have a place for them, but they may find themselves feeling somewhat fish-out-of-water at times in the midst of a Church trending towards traditional styles. This discomfiting is a mild suffering which they may "offer up," much as traditionalist Catholics have offered up their sufferings for the last five decades. In the end it is likely that neither group will be wholly satisfied, but both will find things to like. Those in each crowd who are the least stiff-necked in this regard will store up the most treasure in heaven, and will find that their light and temporary discomfort has produced an eternal reward.

If you meant the former kind of "other," then the answer is even more obvious: They'll either go to hell, or spend a long time in purgation, according to God's mercy and their own degree of rebellion or laxity.

As catholics we should strive to use the teachings of JC to inspire us to do great works, ie. break bread with the hungry, become a carpenter and build houseing for the homeless. Progressives twist thier faith in jesus and thier acts become lobbying congress to do thier chairity work for them. thats not acts thats marxism. I pray for those who have fallen for liberation theology. Come to the church to be reenergized in your faith in jesus , then walk out the front door and do true works with your own hands . not the hands and boots of the Govt. thru true works you will find fellowship that is inspired by your faith in jesus and not the Govt. I pray your good works lead you to be touched by the holy spirit and your life made whole by your faith in jesus.not the faith in man and his govt.May God bless you and make you whole agian Amen.

Well done. This article has made me look at what we have to put up with in the UK! It is time to reach out to all those Catholics( and I have taught many) who have left the Church, I meet and know aome of the young Catholics-and sadly some of them are very much the face of an intolerant Catholicism even our Fathers and Mothers wouldn't recognise, little biblical understanding and a very poor comprehension of history, almost no understanding of the great and ancient witness of the Churches of the Orient, nor of any Roman catholic history before 1054, it is sad, but you give hope to an old man like me, brought up under the Tridentine rule and so glad it went,. I believe that the number of Catholics who have left number in millo ions-so why no ministry by the Church? Lets reach out to them.

Jamie - You pine for the "church as it was in its beginnings," but I don't know with your current mindset if you would even have been drawn to Christ during his earthly ministry. I'm sure it would have irked you immensely that he chose twelve men to be the pillars of the new Israel and ate his Last Supper only with these men. I'm sure that you would have been flabbergasted when Christ informed his followers that he came not to abolish, but to fulfill the law (Matt. 5:17-18)--a law that you undoubtedly would have seen as homophobic and misogynistic. Finally, I'm sure you would have been mystified when Jesus affirmed the authority of the patriarchal religious establishment (Matt. 23:1-4; "do as they say, not as they do"), because they sit on the seat of Moses.

I believe that dissidents in the Church are well-intentioned. They have imbibed a liberal understanding of justice from the broader culture and genuinely think that the Church must move beyond certain outmoded facets of its tradition to affirm this conception of justice. I think they are wrong, but I also don't fault them for fighting for what they believe to be true. What I take issue with is the notion that this vision somehow can be traced back to the early church. As I lay out above, it seems to me that on the basis of complaints that Catholic dissidents level against the present-day hierarchy they would have had just as much of a problem with Christ and the original apostles. Our Lord was not a live-and-let-live hippie; he was an observant Jew who actually called for a higher level of morality than that given in the law (see the Sermon on the Mount; also, "unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law..."). What contemporary dissidents are fighting for is not a version of Christianity that can be traced back to the Church as it was in the beginnings (certainly not the kind of Christianity envisioned by Paul!), but an instantiation of Catholicism the likes of which has not been seen before--a Catholicism, in fact, that would cease to be Catholic, b/c it would bear only the faintest resemblance to that which had come before it.

You've got yourself a pipe dream, here, young lady. Old progressives are drying up and dying. Within 10 or 15 years no one will care enough to subscribe to NCR, because it will be obvious what Catholicism is and isn't. You have lost, give up or get out.