The Catholic Club: Are you in or out?

Hey Ms. Child's would your big tent include the SSPX or just women priest crowd and gay right's crowd??

Nice work, Kate. But, since I don't twitter, the "discussion" is pretty much impossible to follow. It needs to be decoded for some of us lids.

That said, I very much agree with the substance of your thesis. Often folks are so convinced in their heads that what they believe is correct and that they have the whole and only true position on the matter -- whatever it is, they don't have the humility to realize that, indeed, they might be wrong; they might NOT have the truth; the other guy MIGHT BE correct. And, what if the other guy IS correct? Then what? The kinds of discompassionate arguments and proclamations that are pulling apart the Catholic church are not unlike those that initiated the crusades, inquisitions, burning of people like Joan of Arc, excommuncation of great minds such as Galileo.

We are, in fact, a church in schism. And we always have been, except when those in power have chosen and continue to choose to get rid of dissenters by one means or another. And I think they are doing a good job of it. What they refuse to realize is that we "dissenters" will get through the heavenly gates without their approval. And, we might not find them there. Too bad. This is what I believe; but I might be wrong. Jesus loves risk takers -- like himself.

Aldus

"Let’s lose the club and bring back the big tent."
Ain't gonna happen, Kate. At least not until the current RINGMASTER RESIGNS!

What has been so disappointing to me is the lack of leadership from so many of our church leaders to encourage us to be respectful in debate. They say nothing when bearing a false witness is being promoted, if that false information is helping their side of the argument. They will wait until violence erupts and then, only then, condemn it. Well, they should be there to help prevent violence from happening. Yet, they won't do this if the heat of disrespect is fueling support for their side. This is what happens when one is so certain of the rightousness of their position. It is part of being human, I know. But I had hoped for more from our religious leaders and think that we have a right to expect more from them, as we should from ourselves if we are to claim that we are followers of The Prince of Peace.

Kate, I am grateful for your bringing this to our attention. I pray that some will read this and understand how much, in the heat of debate, we lose sight of the dignity of the other. And I will pray that our religious leaders will realize just how much thay are ignoring their responsibility to remind us of this.

Peace and prayers,

John David

Kate, don't you know that you have to watch Fox "News," vote Republican and kick toddlers with lesbian parents to the curb to be an "Orthodox Catholic?"

Steve

And what did Jesus say about the big tent? He did't seem to think it was quite as large as you envision..and his reasoning wasn't that he didn't like diversity...he just said it was HARD to follow him and the way was narrow and the camel could more easily pass through the eye of a needle than to keep to the strict and the narrow. Somehow I don't recall him as thinking everyman deciding the path for himself but rather he set up some pretty tough parameters. But he did promise a life of eternal glory for those who had the strength and the character to perservere and run the good race to the finish. Now you can envision this big tent in all its gumbya glory but you would be better served to spend some time studying the letters of Paul and the lives of the martyrs who by the way are still giving their lives today in many parts of this planet so that the Church might live. The life of the true person of faith isn't about big tents or little personal beliefs and feelings.
It is a difficult path that without the life of grace found in the sacraments of the church is impassible. What you have suggested is not in keeping with what Jesus has said must happen for those who would follow him ...and very superficial.

Very well stated. I lived in Washington, DC for 25 years, a city filled with a vast number of Catholic institutions and people. One of the attractive features of Catholic life in that city was its diversity. I knew people who were members of Opus Dei and part of the conservative political movement, and I knew people who were lived in Catholic Worker houses and worked with the poor. I would see both groups walking together down the aisle of the church for Holy Communion. This diversity is an asset for the Church. It can also be a forum for dialogue between various political perspectives since we all share a common ground in the Church. Unfortunately, it often seems that it's our Bishops who are trying to move us to the right based solely on the abortion issue. Catholic Orthdoxy sometimes makes me a conservative American, sometimes makes me a liberal one--that's its challenge to me.

Ms. Graham, I have to say that this is an eminently reasonable column and I agree with a good deal of it. After all, when Pope Benedict was asked by an interviewer "How many ways are there to God?", he replied "As many ways as there are people". We each relate to God in our own ways; some see Him as a loving parent; some see Him as a just judge. Some see Him as a giver of gifts; some see Him as a guiding light. Some relate to Him out of fear, some out of love, some out of requesting. We all relate to God differently.

Those of us who profess the Catholic faith, we know that Cardinal Newmann was correct when he said "Catholic" means "here comes everybody!". We are a "big tent" Church consisting of folks who worship God in English, Latin, Spanish, Greek, German, Italian, Chinese and hundreds of other languages. Our Church is made up of those of us who are members of the Latin Rite and also over a dozen Eastern Rite, "uniate" Churches, all of whom pledge their allegiance to the Nicene Creed, and Catechism, the Holy Father. We are people who are devoted to social justice, contemplative lifestyle, education, and a variety of other important and essential ministries.

Yet, while we have all this diversity, which is a good thing, we also have a core of teaching that we must accept in order to consider ourselves Catholic. That core of teaching is contained in the Church's Creeds, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in Scriture and Sacred Tradition. It consists of solemnly defined articles of faith such as the Blessed Trinity, the doctrine of Original Sin, the infallibility of the Holy Father, and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist; and it includes teachings that are contained in the Ordinary Magisterium such as the moral evil of abortion and euthanasia, the immoraltiy of homosexual genital intimacy and "marriage", and the ordination of men alone to the priesthood. It has been my experience that people have little trouble with the solemnly declared dogmas, but find the most difficulty with those that are "just" part of the Ordinary Magisterium. Yet, both are articles of faith that require the full assent of our will.

The debate, the dialogue, that you suggest, Ms. Graham, has a definite place in our faith life. However that dialogue should not take the form of debate over articles of faith, those things that we must believe, but rather should take the form off discussion of how we live those articles of faith in our daily lives. For example, we accept as an definitive article of faith that only men can be ordained to the priesthood. So, we do not waste time debating an article of faith, but rather we discuss and debate how we live that article out: How do we assist our overworked clergy? How do we encourage young men to respond to the call God has given them to pursue the priesthood? How do we live out our mission as laity, bringing Christ into the world, while at the same time living out our call to become more actively involved in our parish life?

We accept as an article of faith, stated clearly in the Catechism, in Sacred Scripture, and in 2000 years of consistent Church teaching that the sexual act is only legitimate between a husband and wife. So, rather than debating that article of faith, we should focus on how we help married and single people and homosexual persons to live out this doctrine. How do we encourage those in our own lives to be faithful to chastity in marriage and celibacy when single? How do we compassionately help homosexual persons to embrace their vocation of celibacy and focus their energies on the greater good?

These types of debates, this type of dialogue, is essential. The problem is that we, myself definitely included, spend so much time on the matters that are already settled, the teachings of the Church, her dogma and doctrine, that we do not seem to have the time or energy to help one another live out that beautiful faith that we all have the great blessing and fortune to profess.

Abortion is a smokescreen for people who care more about health insurance profits than living human beings.

Dear young voice,

The other night all I could think of was "a house divided cannot stand" and overlaying "church." There are so many keys to our faith in our creeds, one being the word "catholic" in itself. We need to look at the universality of the concept of catholicism and remember there is a great deal of room for differences and individuality. We need only to respect each other with this in mind...Christ's commandment might help.

Life is so extreme right now, people are at such odds with each other that it is rather frightening and it seems we are on the cusp of an implosion. Yes, I know that "the Church will prevail" but certainly not the Church as we know it. Frankly, I think the destruction of the Vatican(another Temple)( & it is self-destructing) is the only way through this hell, followed by the Second Coming of Christ will cure us.

a middle-aged voice

Dear young voice,

The other night all I could think of was "a house divided cannot stand" and overlaying "church." There are so many keys to our faith in our creeds, one being the word "catholic" in itself. We need to look at the universality of the concept of catholicism and remember there is a great deal of room for differences and individuality. We need only to respect each other with this in mind...Christ's commandment might help.

Life is so extreme right now, people are at such odds with each other that it is rather frightening and it seems we are on the cusp of an implosion. Yes, I know that "the Church will prevail" but certainly not the Church as we know it. Frankly, I think the destruction of the Vatican(another Temple)( & it is self-destructing) is the only way through this hell, followed by the Second Coming of Christ will cure us.

a middle-aged voice

The future of the Catholic church depends on the church being a big tent that is welcoming and inclusive of all people.

You certainly would like to believe that. Using your logic, that means the Church shouldn't have battled against the Arians, the Albigensians, the Manichaeists, the Pelagianists and the dozen of other heresies throughout Her history. I guess we should have just accepted them in the "big tent".

The problem with that logic (or lack of it) is that Christ didn't leave us a Church so that we'd be happy - He left it so that we could be saved. Why struggle to be happy in this life only to risk losing ones' salvation? Kind of reduces the actions of the martyrs to a waste of time.

Well, the fact of the matter is - the Church is a big tent. Big enough to cover everyone who assents to what the Church defines what it means to be Catholic.

The future of the Church depends on the Holy Spirit - that's all. And the Holy Spirit inspires people like Thomas Peters and anyone else who defends the Holy Catholic Church against groups like Catholics United.

And we thought in Italy we had a tough time for catholics politically involved!

I am for the big tent as well. Dissension is neither a fruit nor a gift of the Spirit :-)

I admire the fact that you take the time to read the back and forth between two people who are not dialoguing.

Blessings.

"The future of the Catholic church depends on the church being a big tent that is welcoming and inclusive of all people."

Actually that is directly contradictory to what Jesus told us in the Gospels.

He told us that families would be split apart, children would fight parents, brothers against sisters etc. It was quite different to the "all inclusion" approach offered here.

Clint Green's clear and concise reponse to this article should be read by one and all who truly wish to see the Catholic Church survive the current assault.
We must believe and have faith in her teachings as expressed by the Authority placed there by Jesus Christ. That is the first and formost reguirement in order to be authentically Catholic. All the problems and issues currently being faced by the Church and the society as a whole must be approached by the light of these teachings. The "arugment" should only be about how we implement those teachings, in these circumstances, in the light of Truth. As long as we have Catholics (in name only) who circumvent Truth we will remain a house divided. Perhaps it is time to ( in the words of John XX111) to open wide its windows (notice he did not say doors) so that more of the Light can shine within and allow the wind to separate the wheat from the chaff! The Bishops of the Church have some very serious work in order to complete the job begun.

Watch out if Clint Green AGREES with anything in the NCR! A sure sign that something is wrong with this picture. Clint had distinguished himself as Chief Shill for pope, cardinal or bishops of the Church. They can do no wrong in Clint's eyes. Is it because he is one of them? Or, is it that he is just so bent on keeping the Church at Trent at all costs? I suspect both may be the case, but I have no proof. The status quo of the imperial model of Church is what he is really about and he will fight to the death to defend the current system.

To Chris Smith: I don't know if you really know all that about Clint Green..I certainly don't but I agree 100 % with his response to this article. As for fighting to the death to defend the faith and the Truth it embodies...that is what's called martyrdom...something that all Catholics are called to do whether it is accomplished thru actual spilt blood or on the "battlefield" of the perservation of Truth in other arenas e.g. the world of academe,etc and wherever Truth is denied.

Though credit is given to numerous Catholics of note, I believe the quotation in reference to the Catholic Church "Here comes everybody" is James Joyce from "Finegan's Wake"! Wish people would stop mis-attributing this quote as it is the one thing I understood and really liked that Joyce wrote...and would like to see accurately cited. Apologies to you Joyce fans! Doubt too many of you read NCReporter. Obviously the readers here don't read Joyce!

Well Said kate. I too support the big tent which I know can be achieved if we follow the great commandment "Love one Another as I have loved you. Not easy, but worth the effort and the journey.

Thank you Mr Green for your lucid and sane responses and for upholding the teachings of the Catholic Church.
It always saddens me to see so many posters showing anger that borders on hatred towards Catholic Bishops and even the Holy Father. A poster even went as far as wishing the destruction of the Vatican. Didn't Christ say that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church? If you don't believe that the Catholic Church is the Church that our Lord was talking about why even remain in it? The human side of the Church will never be perfect, not as long as frail human beings are part of it. Yet the very same people who advocate tolerance lash out at the Bishops and want to remake the Church to suit their needs. Yes, the big tent sounds great, nobody should be excluded from the Church's maternal embrace but that does not mean that we can do our own thing and that anything goes. Sin is real and Christ is always calling us to repent. He never said that you can be part of the big tent if you defy the teachings of His Church and refuse to repent of your sins or even refuse to recognize your sins. "Go and sin no more" Jesus said to the adulteress, He never said that what she had done was not a sin.