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Academic study can move the church forward
by Mike Sweitzer-Beckman on Apr. 02, 2009
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Printer-friendly versionSend to friendPDF versionThe firing of Ruth Kolpack from St. Thomas the Apostle Catholic Church in Beloit, Wis., has caused an uproar within the Madison, Wis., diocese as well across the country. It is hard to pinpoint why Kolpack was terminated -- she herself doesn't even know the exact reason.
The diocese won't reveal information because they say it is a 'personnel issue' and that doing so could hurt Kolpack's character. It seems that not saying something also hurts Kolpack's character, because we, the church community, end up relying on speculation rather than truth in an age where the faithful crave more transparency from the hierarchy.
There are hints at reasons why she was fired. Perhaps it was because of some anonymous complaints filed with the diocese against Kolpack (the content of these complaints is unclear). It might also be because of a document that Kolpack wrote to complete her master's of divinity degree At St. Francis Seminary near Milwaukee back in 2003.
I was curious about the document that Kolpack wrote. I earned a master's of divinity from the Jesuit School of Theology at Berkeley, and the topic Kolpack wrote about (inclusive language) was a topic that was explored in several of the courses offered at the Jesuit school. I believe that most of the sources Kolpack cites in her document could also be found at the library of the Graduate Theology Union, of which the Jesuit School of Theology is a member. While St. Francis Seminary no longer serves as an academic seminary, the Jesuit School of Theology is a theologate in good standing. It passed a visit from the Vatican a few years ago with flying colors. Thus, it seems that any number of graduates from my school could risk termination in the Madison diocese if any wrote something disagreeable with Bishop Robert Morlino. I was interested in talking to a member of St. Francis Seminary faculty at the time Kolpack was a student there, so I called Fr. Stephen Lampe, now the pastor at St. Joseph Church in Grafton, Wis.
Lampe taught scripture at St. Francis Seminary from 1991 to 2005, which includes the years that Kolpack was a student there. He described the environment during this time as "ecumenical" (both non-Catholic students and faculty made up the school community), and many faculty were rooted in the spirit and teachings of the Second Vatican Council. Women were encouraged to participate. Lay students studied alongside those on the ordination track, took the same coursework, read the same materials, and took the same exams in order to earn their master's of divinity degrees.
Students had three options to complete their coursework and graduate: a) write a thesis/dissertation, which included taking a position on an issue, and then arguing this position; b) write a seminar paper on a specific topic, exploring an issue such as the spirituality of teaching; or c) complete a three-question exam with a three-member faculty board. Kolpack chose this third option. Lampe was not on Kolpack's exam board, but he took the time to describe the process to me.
A student would choose an issue, and then explore it using a bibliography covering different areas of theological studies provided by the faculty board. (Kolpack's exam indicates the areas she examined around inclusive language were scripture, systematic theology and moral theology.) A student would have three weeks to examine the issue (inclusive language, for example) in a certain area (scripture, for example), and then present this work to his or her faculty board. Using feedback from the board, the student would revise the document presented.
I asked Lampe if the purpose of this exam was to be a statement or manifesto of one's faith. He told me that the purpose of the examination was to determine whether a student could articulate the Catholic position on a particular issue, as well as intelligently articulate other positions on an issue (such as Jewish scholars, Protestant scholars, etc.). The faculty board was not trying to determine whether a student believed a certain thing, as that was not the point of the examination. Kolpack's three-person faculty board, which included a priest who now teaches at Marquette University in Milwaukee, passed her. They determined that she understood the Catholic position on inclusive language from three different areas, and that she was also conversant in other traditions. Thus, she was awarded her master's of divinity degree in 2003.
In the meeting a couple weeks ago between Bishop Morlino and Kolpack (Chancellor Kevin Phelan and Fr. Steven Kortendick, pastor at St. Thomas the Apostle, were also present), Kolpack was asked to recant or denounce her thesis, as well as give an oath of loyalty and a profession of faith. She said, she was willing to do the latter two, but could not do the first on the grounds that it would mean disowning the six years of hard work she put into earning her master's of divinity degree. Thus, Kolpack lost her job.
It doesn't seem like Morlino has done many favors for Kolpack in the past two weeks. Her life has become more complicated because she can no longer work in her home diocese, the only work she has known for decades now. The parishioners at St. Thomas the Apostle are distraught over losing their friend and spiritual guide -- "the foundation of parish life," as Ruth has been described by some.
Perhaps the only favor that Morlino has done for Ruth is to make her master's level examination the most widely read of its kind this year, perhaps of this decade. Maybe ever.
I would hope that all of us will continue to dialogue on how and what we study and write about at accredited Catholic institutions. Such study should be moving us forward as a church and not throwing up barriers that discouraging learning.
(Mike Sweitzer-Beckman earned his Master's of divinity degree from the Jesuit School of Theology at Berkeley, and now lives and worships in his home Diocese of Madison. He works for a statewide loan fund for nonprofits in Wisconsin, and also helped launch the Young Adult Catholics (www.youngadultcatholics-blog.com) on Pentecost 2008.)
Bravo, Mike! Thanks for
Bravo, Mike! Thanks for clarifying the process and reasoning behind the paper Ruth wrote - it seems even MORE illogical now that Bishop Morlino would ask her to denounce it! I agree that nothing written in that document was shocking to me, as a former graduate student in Catholic theology.
I enjoyed reading Ruth
I enjoyed reading Ruth Kolpack's masters study.
Some things in it were stated rather blunty and it's easy to see how a bishop who only read bits and pieces of it could form a false impression.
Thanks to the NCR for publishing her study.
It's an important contribution.
God works in mysterious ways and she is well able to write straight with crooked lines.
It would be a better witness for the Church to treat her employees with justice, fairness, mercy, and transparency. Sadly, that doesn't seem to have been the case here.
God Bless
The Bishop Of Madison ought
The Bishop Of Madison ought to read the Acts of the Apostles and STOP imagining that he is Napoleon Bonaparte.
The "TOP-DOWN" Catholic Church has "SELECTVE AMNESIA", inspite of Scripture:
At that time, as the number of disciples continued to grow, the Hellenists complained against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. So the Twelve called together the community of the disciples and said, "It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table. Brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shall appoint to this task, whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."
The proposal was acceptable to the whole community, so they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and the holy Spirit, also Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicholas of Antioch, a convert to Judaism. They presented these men to the apostles who prayed and laid hands on them.
—Acts of the Apostles 6:1-6
Once again Bishop Morlina has
Once again Bishop Morlina has asserted his position as defender of the Magesterium as a "good" bishop should, as a company or party man is to do to demonstrate his loyalty to the company or party. Coupled with his frequent other statements of loyalty; 1)violating the silence of his priests on surveys commissioned by the diocese rating his performancy 2)blackballing those priests who were gung ho "on his side" 3)firing the Vicar General for not being "on his side" 4)firing a perfectly able member of the parish staff in Oregon, Wisconsin for living an openly gay lifestyle with his partner.
Perhaps Bishop Morlino should be investigated by the Vatican for overstepping his boundaries as a bishop. Perhaps Bishop Morlino should be excommunicated for putting the hopes and layalties of the insitutional church above loyal to Jesus Christ and his message. Perhaps Bishop Morlino needs to spend time in the confessional confessing a sin of deliberately denying Jesus and the New Testament.
Give us a break, he has been
Give us a break, he has been in the diocese for 5 years. Do you expect that nothing ought to change. That people and positions change in the diocese. Get real, what you are talking about is illusory.
I don't like the fact that your comment ends in vitriol indicating that you bear him a long standing grudge.
This is a forum for ideas, not for the settling of old scores.
Finally, the obvious: Judge not lest ye be judged...
The fact that Kolpack is
The fact that Kolpack is defended by these "young voices" a column where married lesbians often write, where "gay marriage" is championed, where support for the "ordination of women" is a given, and where abortion is promoted as a "choice" speaks volumes to the kind of "Catholic" that Kolpack is. If anyone at NCR really wants to defend her the best thing they could do is not write about it.
Thank you for your
Thank you for your sanctimonious statements. They show a sensitive grasp of the complex issues faced in church and world today.
Some issues are complex.
Some issues are complex. Some, however, are less complex and a few are not complex at all.
Secret Files of the
Secret Files of the Inqusition:
http://www.pbs.org/inquisition/
Based on previously unreleased secret documents from European Archives including the Vatican, Secret Files of the Inquisition unveils the incredible true story of the Catholic Church's 500-year struggle to remain the world's only true Christian religion.
Root Out the Heretics:
High in the Pyrenees in the southwest of what is now France, in a time when the Church of Rome proclaims itself the one true religion, heresy has taken hold. The Pope sends the Inquisitors of Heretical depravity to exterminate the heresy. Unbelievers are hunted down, condemned and burned. In 1308 the entire village of Montaillou is taken prisoner of the Inquisition. No one is safe - not even the village priest and the chatelaine of its castle. From the secret files - the extraordinary revelations of village life under the Inquisition.
The Tears of Spain:
Spain. 1468. A land where Christians, Muslims and Jews have lived in tolerance for centuries. But that time is ending. A young King and Queen bent on immortality proclaim themselves the Catholic Monarchs and start an Inquisition. Jews who had converted to Christianity are accused of secretly sabotaging the Christian faith. They become the pawns in a game of chess with dire consequences. Thousands perish in a ritual called the act of faith. In Zaragossa, the inquisitor is assassinated - setting off a wave of reprisals. Mothers will die to protect their children - and the highest in the land will pay the ultimate price. It is the beginning of the Spanish empire and a long dark night that will last for centuries.
The War on Ideas:
Italy, 1522. The decadence of a Medici Pope in Rome outrages the devout priest in Germany named Martin Luther. In the face of the Protestant Reformation, a fanatical monk sets out to exterminate the heresy. On his path to power he will create the Roman Inquisition. And he will become the most hated Pope in history. Powerful leaders of the Catholic Church are arrested and imprisoned, accused of reading books banned by the Church. Free-thinking students are silenced. Darkness descends on the centers of learning and Renaissance. The Roman Inquisition leaves a legacy that lasts into the twentieth century.
The End of The Inquisition:
The secret files of the Inquisition are locked away for centuries. A Spanish priest devotes his life to exposing the brutal records of the Inquisition. Napoleon spreads the ideas of the Enlightenment. He conquers Italy, abolishes the Inquisition and orders its files sent to Paris. Spain's greatest painter, Goya, will depict the Inquisition for the first time - and then run for his life. The kidnapping of a young Jewish boy secretly baptized will be one of the desperate last attempts at exerting the power of the Inquisition. A devoted father fights to get back his son. The boy becomes a symbol for a Pope who is about to lose his dominion on earth.
http://www.inquisitionproductions.com/purchase.html
I object that you are using
I object that you are using the name of St Robert Bellarmine S.J., Doctor of the Church. As for your crass advertisement for "POP" journalism, I dismiss it. I have no respect for intellect without discipline.
And I have no respect for
And I have no respect for commentary under the guise of anonymity. If you have the courage of your convictions, then have the cojones to identify who you are!
Put up or clam up.
By "cojones" I presume that
By "cojones" I presume that you mean male gonads. Does one have to be male to be assertive; sexist? What about Mother Theresa and Mother Angelica, and Mother Paula, St Teresa, St Catherine of Siena, Mother Clare Millea, Sr Schneiders..and many more...?
It's worth taking a look at
It's worth taking a look at the very tired argument against the Church of the "horrors of the Inquisition" and contrasting it with the world's more recent Inquisitions. Based off existing documentation, the number of people killed (whether justified or not...probably not justified) in the course of the Inquisition pales in comparison with the 20th century inquisitions of Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Hussein, and so forth. At least the Church looked at their targets as body and soul...the recent inquisitors couldn't even see the soul. And to claim Napoleon (which this PBS program seems to do) as some sort of protector and defender of liberty, I'd suggest you look at the estimated 2-3 million deaths he directly caused through war, starvation, and brutality. Napoleon was a true disciples of the Enlightenment, to be certain - he fulfilled some of its goals and dreams - the perfect man, roaming the earth and taking what he wanted in his name alone. Once again, his crimes certainly dwarf the church's, from where I stand.
As for the notion that the Church crushed "free thought" and the principles of the Renaissance and Enlightenment, the opposite case is true. Its principles have flourished, and the world can easily see its irrational results. The fathers of the Renaissance, from Voltaire to Rousseau to Fourier, all beget the philosophies of the 19th century that ultimately led to the nihilism and ahteism of the 20th century. It was Marx, Nietsche, and Sartre who grew up in the sunshine of the Enlightenment; it was Hitler, Stalin, Gramsci, Mussolini, etc. who applied their ideas so well.
"Kolpack was asked to recant
"Kolpack was asked to recant or denounce her thesis, as well as give an oath of loyalty and a profession of faith." It scares me how much this reminds me of the Spanish Inquisition (minus the physicial torture, of course). Has the Church learned nothing in the last 500 years?
I have been a Catholic my whole life, nearly 30 years, and it is things like this that make me seriously consider leaving the Church. The faith itself is great, but its leaders (to whom we are supposed to be loyal) haven't been doing so well in their displays of Christian virture the last few years. It is truely shameful that our leaders don't practice what they preach or mirror Christ their Shepard.
At the risk of sounding like
At the risk of sounding like a former U.S. President: I share your pain. The dirty little secret (perhaps not so secret if you read their blogs) is that the poison pen writers of the ultramontane right care not a fig if you and others leave the church. In their mindset, they want a "purer" church that is 30 to 40 percent smaller anyway. It appears that the episcopal bench appointed during the last pontificate shares that view, at least in part. Who the far right will get to pay the bills for a host of Catholic institutions in a much smaller church is any one's guess. Perhaps Gingrich can bring the equally thrice married Murdoch into your church with his billions. "Anon." you would be welcomed in many mainline liturgical/sacramental denominations ( e.g.,Anglican or Lutheran)should you choose to walk. I've rarely looked back once I left.
Show me, please, where
Show me, please, where Gingrich's billions are.
Newt isn't exactly broke - he
Newt isn't exactly broke - he was able to pay for two annulments of previous marriages and become a Catholic fully received into the Church. Hmmmmm. (I've never heard of an annulment being "given".)
The problem of clericalism is
The problem of clericalism is composed of several problems. It is the problem of a caste that arrogates to itself undue authority, that makes unwarranted claims to wisdom, even to having a monopoly on understanding the mind of God. The consequence is the great weakening of the Church by denigrating or excluding the many gifts of the Spirit present in the people who are the Church. The problem of clericalism arises when "the church" acts in indifference, or even contempt, toward the people who are the Church.
Richard J. Neuhaus, June 1989.
Lets face it. Anybody can
Lets face it. Anybody can take courses at a theological college or university and then write a thesis. Based upon some of the earlier comments, EDUCATION AND THE ABILITY TO WRITE IS EQUATED WITH PERSONAL HOLINESS AND A RIGHT TO RULE. Its really a sad commentary on the contemporary American view of the Catholic Religion when personal holiness, Tradition and Apostolic Authority stand for nothing. The Church is not a human institution...
Perhaps education and writing
Perhaps education and writing skills do not amount to personal holiness, but having read Ruth's paper, I could find nothing that would be shocking to anyone studying Catholic theology on the graduate level. Perhaps her views on women's ordination are contrary to current Church teaching, but from what has been reported, that is not even what Bishop Morlino took issue with. The bulk of her paper was well within Church teaching.
If you want to talk about personal holiness, then let's talk about the fact that Ruth dedicated 30 years of her life to her parish, community, and spreading the faith. It's a really sad commentary on life in the Roman Catholic Church in this time and place when someone as dedicated as Ruth in unceremoniously tossed out by a Bishop who didn't even bother to read the whole paper.
I strongly urge you to read
I strongly urge you to read the Q&As...
The Catholic Church doesn't
The Catholic Church doesn't teach the doctrine that you advocate-WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS-JUST BECAUSE A PERSON WORKS 30 YEARS IN THE CHURCH DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY SOMEHOW ARE HOLIER THAN A PERSON WHO WORKD 6 MONTHS. Did you ever wonder why ORIGIN and TERTULLIAN are not Saint Origen an Saint TERTULLIAN. Its because both turned to Heresy. That's why St Paul spoke of running the race and working out our salvation in fear (including filial fear) and trembling. Grace is gift. Look to the Pope, I know the Bishops do...
Firstly, I am not advocating
Firstly, I am not advocating any doctrine. I ask that you not put words in my mouth when you have no evidence of what theology I espouse.
Secondly, I am in no way suggesting Ruth is "saved" by her work in the Church. I AM suggesting, however, that the action of dedicating one's life to to the service of the Church may be an indication of one's love of God and the Church. I ask that you not put words in my mouth when you have no evidence of what theology I espouse.
Do you have a better indication of Ms. Kolpack's personal piety, sacramental life, and spiritual practice? Do you have some special insight into her life that the rest of us, looking at the evidence at hand, do not? If so, do tell, and step out from behind anonymity.
Excuse me, are you saying
Excuse me, are you saying "salvation in fear'? This is not of God! God is LOVE and Jesus said many times: "Do not be afraid" Fear is what is tearing the Catholic Church, our country, the world apart. Wake up! Jesus also said many times. May God's love dissolve your fear so you can truly see the light of day
Why don't you Google the
Why don't you Google the catholic meaning of "filial fear". you will be edified...
"The Church is not a human
"The Church is not a human institution" is that it Anonymous of April 02? Jesus Christ is both human and divine. Jesus as head of the Church is divine, but the Church is very much a human institution. It is composed of humans, exists in a very human world, seeks to follow Christ---but as humans beings. We are wonderful and horrible. We are saintly and sinners. We are capable of wonderful accomplishments and horrible failures. But we are always human.
But we are called to grow, to learn, to develop, to go beyond the level we were at when we were 7, 12, 18, 25, 30, 45, 59, 68, 79, 80.....As far as ability to write is equated with holiness----nobody stated that (and that is not in Ruth's thesis). But our Church, writers are very important---scripture writers, spiritual writers, spectulative theologians, moral theologians, etc. They have helped us over the centuries to grow and develop further as humans on the way of the Lord.
Unfortunately, if you study Church History, you would find that the so-called church authorities---too often let their desire to hold on to their power, to influence the powers-that-be, frequently threw road blocks in the way of those who were trying to keep the Church vital, dynamic, Spirit-filled, evangelical, and capable of working with the world in every generation.
ASSUMING THAT YOU CALL
ASSUMING THAT YOU CALL YOURSELF CATHOLIC... DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT WHEN A PRIEST ABSOLVES A CONTRITE PENITENT OF THEIR SINS IN THE SACRAMENT OF RECONCILIATION THAT HE IS DOING IT ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY? DO YOU THINK THAT WHEN THE PRIEST PRONOUNCES THE WORDS OF THE EUCHARISTIC PRAYER IT IS BY HIS OWN AUTHORITY AND IN HIS OWN PERSON? DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT THE REASON WHY ORDINARY CATHOLICS FEED THE POOR, HELP THE SICK, EDUCATE, AND PERFORM OTHER ACTS OF CHRISTIAN MERCY, THEY DO THIS IN THEIR OWN NAME-THEY DO IT IN JESUS CHRIST'S-GOD COME IN THE FLESH NAME. THE SOUL OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ALMIGHTY GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT. FOR THIS IS WHAT CATHOLICS BELIEVE. GOOD NEWS transmitted to ALL PEOPLE in unworthy sinful human beings. THAT IS WHY WE ASK THE LORD DURING THE MASS NOT TO LOOK ON OUR SINS BUT RATHER UPON THE FAITH OF HIS CHURCH. The Church is far from being a human institution, IT WAS FOUNDED BY CHRIST NOT BY HUMAN BEINGS...Grace and peace with prayers always in Christ...
Dear Anonymous of April 03, I
Dear Anonymous of April 03,
I am assuming that you directed your comments to me---about the Church not being "human". You stated 'assuming that you call yourself Catholic"...First of all Jesus did not 'found the Catholic Church'. The original followers of Christ were called Christians (in 1055, with the split between East and West---the Christians of the West called themselves Catholic, the East called themselves Orthodox).
But aside from that---Jesus is just as human as he is divine---Jesus has two natures---human and divine. To deny his human nature is heresy. But our church is composed of humans---who act humanly. When a priest absolves a sinner, he is doing it in the name of Jesus AND THE HUMAN COMMUNITY.
When we pray during the Liturgy that God 'look not upon our sins, but upon the faith of the Church,' we are praying that God look upon the faith that the entire Church (those living, and those who have gone before us---and they are all HUMANS) has and had. Those standing in the presence of God (Heaven) no longer need faith or hope---because they see clearly the object of their faith---God.
But do not look down your nose on the humanity of the Church. Jesus did not bring into being a Church for Angels----but for humans---and it is very human with Jesus the God-Man as its Head.
I urge you to Cathoogle.com
I urge you to Cathoogle.com the word "Catholicos". I assure you that I am not a monophysite. There are many "potholes" in that road, which require discerment by the Church. You might also want to Cathoogle Teilhard de Chardin, beware of the concept of spiritual evolution-noosphere... The Catholic Office warned about it years ago...
Anonymous, you seem to be
Anonymous, you seem to be confusing authoritarianism with authority. You know they are diametrically opposed to each other. This is a serious mistake that so many in our Church Episcopacy seem to be making. It truly causes them to become irrelevant to Christian believers. It hurts our church like letting the foxes go in the hen house.
As a Catholic theologian who
As a Catholic theologian who has been through something similar to what Ruth Kolpack is going through, I grieve at the church's violation of its teachings about love and justice and human rights, in its treatment of its employees.
It is, unfortunately, very common for Catholic college presidents and pastors, bishops, and/or religious superiors of communities that sponsor Catholic institutions, to play this immoral can't-disclose-the-reason game when someone they wish to shove out is terminated.
It is also, unfortunately, just as common for those same pastoral and institutional leaders to insinuate that their reason for refusing to discuss the cause of a termination is to protect the person being terminated from some unsavory disclosure.
This is ugly behavior. It has no place in the body of Christ. We all suffer from it.
In my case, NCR would not pursue the story. When I contacted NCR, I was told (and this is perhaps right) that this kind of story is so common in Catholic institutions as not to be newsworthy.
In the case of Ruth Kolpack, I am very glad NCR is seeking the truth and publicizing this story of gross injustice. The scars of these experiences go very deep in the lives and souls of those treated this way by so-called pastoral leaders. It hurts even more when the Christian community just seems not to care very much, either about what is done to a brother and sister in Christ or about the gross betrayal of pastoral leadership, when our leaders employ such tactics.
You call yourself a Catholic
You call yourself a Catholic theologian. Have you signed the diocesan mandatum; if so, you may call yourself a Catholic Theologian if not, you are just another person with a theology degree... I just want to get the facts straight.
Thank you for your reply,
Thank you for your reply, Anonymous.
You ask if I have signed the "diocesan mandatum."
I'm uncertain what that phrase means. I just googled it, and find only one reference to it on the entire Internet, at least per google's search engine.
Do you mean that there's some kind of secret oath some dioceses or all dioceses have, to administer to anyone who's supposed to be a theologian? Some oath of loyalty to . . . who? The bishop of the diocese?
Some oath that goes beyond our baptismal statement of faith?
Have all Catholic theologians in the U.S. taken such an oath?
Could you please help me understand what you mean by the phrase "diocesan mandatum"?
For your reading pleasure,
For your reading pleasure, here is the link to the Vatican Website: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/docum...
Mr. Lindsey has given himself
Mr. Lindsey has given himself a mandatum. See his blog for his teaching: http://bilgrimage.blogspot.com/
Mark, again, I have to thank
Mark, again, I have to thank you--in this case, for kindly recommending my blog. I had wondered why the count of readers jumped so much in the past day or so.
Re: mandata, I'm a bit puzzled, though. You say that I have given myself my own mandatum, and you reference my blog. But when I search the blog for any mention of mandata, I draw a blank.
I have to ask again, as I did when Anonymous posted about the mandatum: have all Catholic theologians taken a mandatum? If not, on what basis would anyone deny the majority of Catholic theologians in the world who have not taken the mandatum the right to call themselves Catholic theologians?
Is there a danger to the church, do you think, when loyalty oaths are used to curb theological inquiry? Does the church benefit, or is it harmed, when the vocation of theologians in the church is not respected or permitted by those in authority in the church--and by watchdog groups who have often appear to have little regard either for the truth or for the full range of Catholic teaching?
Sorry, I haven't any more
Sorry, I haven't any more interest. Not even enough to click the link.
He's Catholic and he's a
He's Catholic and he's a theologian, Anonymous. That makes him a Catholic theologian.
Anonymous, I have read many
Anonymous, I have read many of your posts. Do you know how vile and mean are your words? Reading your words are like reading the sanctimonious words of the pharisees and scribes as they interogated Jesus. As we approach Holy Week, please pray and reflect on this.
Remember the words of St. Augustine;
In necessary things- unity, in doubtful things - liberty, bu in all things- CHARITY.
Don't know which anonymous
Don't know which anonymous you are referring to. But my view is that I would actually sin against charity if I did not contribute... God love you!
All Christians are
All Christians are theologians by virtue of their baptism. Sorry, I don't genuflect to academic theology; I'm more than equal to anybody "doing" theology these days.
Try doing that the next time
Try doing that the next time you phone up the New York times with a scholarly opinion...(EYES ROLLING)
You mean there are actual
You mean there are actual scholars at the New York Times? People who really understand what they are writing about and not just idealogue hacks? And I thought the NYT was just The Devils Diary.
EYES ROLL BACK TO ANONYMOUS.
There are sure a log of gutless weenies around here who post anonymously. Perhaps NCR ought to require real names and email address. It might improve the quality of discourse if people had to take public responsibility for their writing.
Wow, just a tad bit of hubris
Wow, just a tad bit of hubris Mark. I guess this means you are more equal than Benedict XVI who happens to be an academic theologian. When will you be writing your first encyclical so I can compare abilities?
Near as I can tell, Colkoch1,
Near as I can tell, Colkoch1, you don't have a lot of use for B16's writing, except maybe for when he was "groovy" back in the late 60s. Lets see your latest effort.
As for me, have a look this: http://ncronline.org/node/3205
Mark, I appreciate the
Mark, I appreciate the support for my argument.
You're absolutely right: all Christians are theologians by virtue of their baptism.
And as my comment about the Ruth Kolpack story noted, Ruth Kolpack has a right, by virtue of her baptism, to be treated with respect and dignity by pastors of the church. She has a right not to have her humanity trampled on by being fired without any explanation, and she has a right to continue her vocation as a catechist until or unless it can be determined in some open, accountable process that she is unable to pursue her calling.
You've helped me very much by your comment! I now see even more ways in which our fundamental human rights are underscored by baptism, so that when church officials violate those human rights they do a double injustice. Thank you for pointing this out to me.
A good list of rights. What
A good list of rights. What do you suppose Ms. Kolpack's (or some similar Church employee's) corresponding responsibilities are?
I understand that the Amish
I understand that the Amish also baptize. It would be interesting indeed to hear one hold forth on a detailed explanation of Catholic doctrine and ethics. (EYES ROLLING)
Amish people are Christians.
Amish people are Christians. Isn't Catholic doctrine and ethics Christian? Do you suppose the Catholic Church knows more about Christ than the Amish do? I think not. I think Catholics, such as yourself, Anonymous, tend to get caught up in the Catholic Catechism and lose sight of Christianity. Probably the worst thing to come out of Vatican II that the Catechism became completely available in its exquisite detail to all who can read even if they cannot reason.
Another anti-catholic
Another anti-catholic unmasked.
Wow, considering that I am
Wow, considering that I am supposedly anti-Catholic, what would account for my contributing so much of my time and money to their Church?
Because a man pays the bills,
Because a man pays the bills, does it give him the right to rape his wife? I doubt even that you are a woman...
I doubt that you are even a
I doubt that you are even a person.
Not only do I doubt that you
Not only do I doubt that you are a person, but I believe that you must be crazy to think that defending the Amish somehow equates to hating Catholicism or the Catholic Church. If I pay the bills, then it indicates that I am supportive. That you get from there to a man raping his wife, suggests that you are seriously disturbed.
Its been days now, yet no
Its been days now, yet no denial. If you are a catholic you should know that its a sick bird indeed that soils its own nest.
If I were you, I would seek
If I were you, I would seek out some professional help with your problem. You are not seriously trying to turn this conversation to one of marital rights are you?
Hey, Bill, always good to see
Hey, Bill, always good to see your posts.
You know any institution that you work in, you will get to see employees "done" by the boss, HR, whoever. It's never a pretty sight and it always leaves a trail of carnage; like being in the path of a personal Sherman's march to the sea.
Marie noted below that Bill is Catholic and he is a theologian so therefore he is a Catholic theologian. While I appreciate that line of logic, we know that the Catholic church can, with the stroke of a pen erase someone's ability to work in their chosen field. Not just Ruth Kolpack and William Lindsey but also Fr. Curran and Fr. Haight and many more.
And while the church can and does erase a person's ability to work in their chosen field, it can not erase a personal identity. And that becomes what is much harder to reconcile. I think the men who leave the priesthood for marriage may have this issue, too. "You've told me I am not but I am....and indeed what else can I be?"
A lot of pain and alienation just so that someone can reassure themselves of their powerfulness.
I think in the name of knowledge and truth seeking, we can have some tolerance for opposing view points. Always, to me, in the Conception and birth of Jesus, is the central point that God is saying to us, "Things are not as you think they are or should be." Yes, God touches man through a "despoiled" young woman and a baby born in a manger. Not in grandeur but in humility.
Is the institutional church still blindly beating up on the messengers of God in the twenty-first century? We cannot know anything for certain (in spite of the bishops and the hierarchies claims to knowing). So can't we let some of this information come in to the sunshine? Let it be handled and lived? Certain ideas have stood the test of millenial time; and many have failed. So let the academic quest for knowledge continue, not irresponsibly free, but with a freedom to question.
BTW, Bill's postings are always real and often bring to idea some new idea or point of view well worth exploring. DON'T deprive yourself of an opportunity to read his stuff.
Cartman08 aka MollyJ
MollyJ, thank you. I'm glad
MollyJ, thank you. I'm glad you posted, because you had said hello to me on another thread, and it sort of ended (that is, went off the main screen, and I couldn't find it!) before I could thank you for the hello.
For anyone interested, I did make a more extensive statement about Ruth Kolpack's case on my Bilgrimage blog today. Mark Andrews has helpfully provided the url of the blog, but in case readers missed it, it's www.bilgrimage.blogspot.com.
This is an important case, because it suggests that the church is continuing to violate the rights of its employees by refusing to afford them due process in termination decisions--even while the church preaches to society at large that workers are persons and not objects, whose human rights ought to be respected.
When we as a church fail to live by what we proclaim, we undermine the effectiveness of the proclamation.
Don't buy in to the
Don't buy in to the "despoiled young woman" talk. One doesn't have to be a "theological" christian to understand the prophesy concerning her. She is the Mother of the Messias. The new Eve... Be wary of irreligious talk concerning the Mother of God...
Jesus never said a word about
Jesus never said a word about gays and lesbians one way or another. Paul denounced Roman ritual homosexual behaviors but never said anything about it otherwise. Our best Christian scholars tell us is almost certainly there were women who served as "priests" in the early days of Christianity and probably for some centuries. Indeed the idea of "ordination" comes from Roman, and pagan rituals not anything that Jesus or any of the writers of the Christian Scriptures speak about. There is a significant difference between being "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion"; they are not mutually exclusive. None of the writings in Christian scripture suggest that a "loyalty oath" was required to serve the community. Disciples of Jesus want to be loyal to Him; being loyal to an institution is not the same thing. In fact it is counter productive for the building of an individual's faith and for unity of the community. Requiring such an oath is often an act of desperation.
Where are our true leaders? Is Ms. Kolpack one that the hierarchy is afraid of? Certainly Bishop Morlino is not one. He's a boss; a real leader does not treat people with this abuse and disregard and hide under the shield that this is a "personnel matter." This is behavior out of the dark ages and the inquisition.
Bishop Morlino might think that his "decisive" action will be a warning to others who might deviate from his conception of orthodoxy. I think he's in for more dissent than he thought.
Aldus (Jerry)
This is poison.
This is poison.
Demons think holy water is
Demons think holy water is poison. Why do you think the comment is poison?
"Our best Christian scholars"
"Our best Christian scholars" - examples, please.
This article focusing on Ruth
This article focusing on Ruth Kolpack's thesis is irrelevant while side-steping the reality. Bishop Molina's God given responsibility is to be sure those who teach the Faith in his diocese are accurate. Ruth's devotion to a politicized, leftist agenda made it impossible for her to be a Catholic teacher of orthodox doctrine. There was and is her long track record that could not, in conscience, be ignored by the Bishop. In addition, Ruth, in conscience,refused to refute that her heterodox convictions were worthy of public exposure inside her parish. Ruth thinks her catechist skills are protected by the 1st amendment. 'Due process' is a preposterous notion in this situation while insulting our intelligence. A good bishop avoids the prospect of a parish in revolution. Waiting too long, Bishop Clark of Rochester found that out. Clark's beloved Corpus Christi Parish refused to change on [1] gay unions [2] Communion for anybody and everybody, and [3] Female co-consecrators. In conscience, 1,000 marched off to http://www.spirituschristi.org.
I'm a little confused -
I'm a little confused - Bishop Morlino and the Diocese of Madison have alluded to these sorts of claims - that she was not representing the faith well. I have been trying to piece that together through talking to Ms. Kolpack, as well as the parishioners who knew her so well. They can't come up with anything that she taught that was contrary to official church catechesis. The Diocese says that Ms. Kolpack did something that goes against church teaching, but won't be specific about what it is - leading to endless speculation on the part of the faithful.
Does anybody know what Ruth did that got her fired?
Try this scenario and see if
Try this scenario and see if if fits: There was one parishoner, who happened to have a "relationship" with Morlino, who had a grudge against Ms Kolpack. He fabricated a charge against Ms Kolpack, gave it to the "good" Bishop, who acted on it.
Remember the bishop's comments in previous press realeases:
--- admitted to the press he never read the thesis
--- admitted to the press that the charge came from a parishoner
Does the term "witch hunt" fit?
Mr. Brennan sounds similar to
Mr. Brennan sounds similar to several controll seeking bishops. Maybe he is in reality bucking for that position.
Question; since when is it required of bishops to swear loyalty to the bishop of Rome, not to Jesus? I would prefer the latter.
Ed
Hi, Michael Brennan, I laugh
Hi, Michael Brennan,
I laugh when I see Catholics talking about "orthodox doctrine" in their postings here. The only ones who really have the right to speak about orthodoxy, are the Orthodox Christians (who are probably closer to being like the early Christians---than Catholics are). They believed that the Pope is the "First among Equals" (rather than the head over all). First among Equals is how St. Paul treated St. Peter---and which is the way the other Apostles treated Peter. James was the leader of the Church in Jerusalem, not Peter.
Secondly, about your statement that "Ruth thinks her catechist's skills are protected by the First Amendment." No body was accusing Ruth of teaching anything but what the Church's formal position is. It was only the anonymous writers to the Bishop (who probably wouldn't know what "orthodoxy" was if it hit them between the eyes)that complained about Ruth to the Bishop.
Finally, I'd like to add this----no American who applies for a position in the Catholic Church (or any church) leaves their American rights outside the door in applying/receiving that position. They have every right to expect to be treated fairly, and to receive due process. And the Bishops/priest have every responsibility to comply with that expectation. Catholics have every right to demand that the hierarchs are transparent and act fairly and justly.
Our the Church is always speaking about "Justice and Peace issues". Unfortunately, the justice is always sought for the faceless, nameless multitudes in other lands. Our hierarchy seem to believe that justice is not for those who work within the Church--nor their responsibility to model to those who work within the Church---or for the laity to see modeled by the Bishops.
While deplorable, the
While deplorable, the Church's action is certainly not surprising.
It's a wonder the Catholic Church hasn't alienated all of its flock, especially when they are trying their hardest to do so.
A timely reminder that all of
A timely reminder that all of the folks who post comments to NCR are not Catholics.
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