All of us, not just those Marines, carry the capacity for evil

This kind of behavior is absolutely disgusting. I am mature enough to know that I am capable of bad behavior. I sometimes dream of shooting sexual abusers where it hurts most. There are people on whom I would love to spit. I may be female, old and ignorant or naieve, but I cannot understand this type of male behavior. In New Orleans after the BCS Bowl game when Alabama defeated LSU, a group of fans humiliating a passed out drunk LSU fan by putting fast-food containers on his head and sticking their fingers in his ears and nose. One Alabama fan pulled out his "private" part and rubbed it in the face of the passed out young man. This being the 21st century, all was caught on tape. Fortunately, the law sees it as sexual battery. http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2012/01/bond_set_at_10000_for_alabam...

When we train people to kill, we often wipe out any of their qualms about overtly bad behavior...that doesn't make right what the Marines did...we need to look at how training people for war warps their psychology...and their morals and should acknowledge our part in that process.

If you asked every person if he or she would rather be riddled with bullet holes or peed on, I bet the result would be very lopsided.

We need to ask ourselves, what is it in our culture's indoctrination of us that causes there to be an outrage over urinating on corpses but that accepts shooting and bombing and killing as a commonplace, as an of-course-that-has-to-be occurrence?

I agree with the major premise of this article that each of us is capable of doing something horrendous. It seems that it would be helpful to the individuals of our society if we as a society would condemn outright the very concept of war. As long as violence whether it be individual or societal is seen as a viable solution to complex problems we will experience the behaviors mentioned in this article.

For anyone interested in an excellent book about the spiritual and emotional side of being a professional soldier and the psychological and spiritual stresses of same I would recommend the book "What It Is Like to Go To War" by Karl Marlantes. It is well written, thought provoking and presents a guide for what we might dp and where we might go in the future.

Why don't we just - in the words of Dorothy Day - create a mighty league of conscientious objectors to war...and refuse to enter the militaries of the world. Modern warfare is unjust by its very nature, and therefore makes the so-called Christian Just War Theory moot. By the way, how long must a 'theory' survive as such until it is denounced as incompatible with the Gospels and the nonviolent Christ. Christians are not permitted to kill.

For a superb analysis on the CJWT see Rev. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy's:
The Christian Just War Theory: Logic of Deceit

http://centerforchristiannonviolence.org/data/Media/CJWT_Booklet.pdf

Just the other day the Taliban released a video of them executing in cold blood some Pakistani soldiers. So far they have executed every American soldier they have captured, save one. I well remember the Daniel Pearl video where he was beheaded. Where were the articles about these in NCR or liberal media outlets? You might consider that our enemies are far more vicious then most of us can imagine. How about you turn your ire on them for once?

Thank you, Mr. Tammeus, for this thoughtful article. I admire the Presbyterian faith tremendously and find its theology compelling. When people freely admit that they "dream of shooting sexual abusers" and "would love to spit" on certain people, aren't they really acknowledging their own human tendency to depravity? We all live with that human frailty, which is why we all must do _everything_ we can to resist violence, revenge, aggression, and warfare.

Once again, a very thought-provoking article by Bill Tammeus. As Christians we have no excuse for failing to recognize our own deep flaw, whether we call it original sin or not. To recognize our own tendency to evil isn't to deny someone else's, but Jesus himself told us to look at the beam in our own eye first! Perhaps our original sin is actually destructive and blinding pride, which won't tolerate stringent self-examination.

Well.I must admit,I was somewhat amused and more than a little shocked that Tammeus,a well-known liberal Presbyterian blogger,would actually affirm what the Scriptures teach concerning the reality of our fallen human natures.Any serious observer of human behaviour and/or student of Scriptures could hardly be surprised at the actions of the Marines;as I'm always telling my relatives and friends,human beings are simply"like that",and as I'm Mr.Tammeus would admit,and does so on this post,even so-called liberal theologians are forced to acknowledge"the evil that men(and women!)Do".[Actually,the two World Wars shattered the"Fatherhood of God,Brotherhood of Man"utopian myth].I don't know who Matthew Fox is,but I'm quite familiar with the opinions of John Shelby Spong,a man who came to my and Mr.Tammeus'hometown(Kansas City,MO)in November and gave a lecture at the so-called"Unity School of Christianity"espousing his bizarre views,even though he claims to be an Espcopalian.To be frank,I consider Spong to be a quasi-theological dilettante,spewing pseudo-intellectual excrement,with a bizarre obsession to re-make Almighty God in his(Spong's)image. At any rate,I trust Tammaeus will reflect on his own words;as for war itself,for those who seek to end it...dream on.War will end when human beings cease being human.

What truly saddens; though not surprises; me about this latest incident of military disrespect to combatants is not the act itself. As many others have commented, when you place young soldiers in combat situations, these incidents will occur; for the reasons the author and many others have pointed out.

What truly saddens me is the response from ordinary citizens on the street. I work with the public and have heard this incident discussed often in recent days. Overwhelmingly, the major consensus is they got what they deserved; they'd do the same to us; what's the big deal? The only negative comments I've heard is that the soldiers were stupid to allow the photo.

Even the official statements have more to do with breaking military procedures than any intrinsically evil action. We're just embarrassed to be caught on film.
This is just a continuation on demonization that allows us to act immorally, while retaining our moral "innocence".

I can think of many more "horrendous" things than peeing on a corpse.

I feel very sad that the world has filled up with the free thinking arm chair quarterbacks, sitting in judgement, for something that thankfully, they have no experience with.

You expect these kids in our Military to be as Politically Correct as the rest of you, yet we send them into mortal combat against an enemy that has no such restrictions.
It is war, plain and simple kill or be killed. Think to yourselves if your husbands, wives, siblings, friends or children were being violently taken in front of your eyes, right next to you, trust me in this PC goes out the window quick and You would either react or be very grateful men like those were there for you.

I make no excuses for my Brother Marines, They need none. These boys have been fighting for 10 years now, giving those who judge them a reason to post their petty little notes on the internet forums.

Don't judge them to harshly, pray that when they are finally brought home to join us in our world they have the strength to leave that world behind. Most never will.

Only two types of people truly understand Marines .... Marines and those who met them in Combat. Everyone else has a second hand opinion that really doesn't matter anyway.

Semper Fidelis

Just1Marine

Amen. Evolutionary biology tells us that we humans carry a capacity for good/ cooperation and evil/nastiness towards others. Even more, our self-righteousness is one of the chief instigators of evil.

Read atheist Harvard Professor Steven Pinker's Book entitled "The Blank Slate" for insight into our built in capacity for evil (wherever it came from). The main thrust of the book is that we human do have a specific nature, however culturally flexible that nature might be, and that science has now been able to describe that nature accurately, including its capacities for good and evil. He also beautifully illustrates our nature from insightful analyses of various literary works. By the way, Pinker is horrified by late term abortion just as he supports abortion before the appearance of brain waves. He does not understand how anyone can say that a late term abortion does not involves the killing of a viable, developed human infant.

This particular company, and the soldier in charge of it, was already a disciplinary problem before leaving the US. It was not military discipline that brought on this behavior, but a lack of it. But the military brass ought to know that soldiers who chronically break discipline in the USA are going to be big problems when serving abroad.

Dear Mr.Tammeus,

Even if I usually agree with you, with all due respect I must say that, for once, I don't. To be able to answer properly, I waited, and came back to read once again your article. I don't know enough about Calvinism to debate his thought or your faith. But, as a Catholic, I can debate your assumption that the human nature is intrinsically depraved. From the theological view point, our faith has evolved along the centuries. So did humans. Since the caves, through the discovery of fire and agriculture, until the first religious manifestations, that started exactly with the burial of the bodies and some forms of cult of the death.
If you speak with a neuro scientist who studies the brain, he'll tell you that we kept, together with new functions that allowed language, the making of tools and the transmission of learning, some areas inherited from our primitive ancestors, who does not serve us anymore and often are a nuisance. For instance, the "alarm system" that allowed them to survive in the jungle, among wild beasts, and that now just produce atacks of panic, anxiety and stress, because we are subject to too many stimulus. The part of the brain that served to save their lives now can kill you from an heart attack. If even it can still protect you from harm: if you sense a car speeding towards you and treatening to crash on you, you are filled with adrenaline and able to jump at the last second.
Since we are an evolving species, we have not a fixed nature, unchanged since the last thousands years. If you think that the earth and the universe have many billions, I would ask: In what precise mooment of the time/space continuous was commited the unforgivable original sin? Before the Big Bang or after? The myth of the Garden of Eden, already present in older traditions than the Bible's, only has to offer the kind of insight mythology are able to provide. It was based on the Myth, in Platonism - and in the experience of its own lust - that St. Augustine developed the doctrine of the Original Sin/Fall.
The only possible way to acomodate theology, science, faith and reason is following, for instance, Fr. Teilhard de Chardin Cosmic Christology: created as a simple act of Love, all Universe - who is expanding - is intended to be Christlike. He was a mystic and a scientist, who was silenced by his superiors. Now that his work is known, his teaching makes more and more sense.
Sometimes, what we call a natural predisposition for evil is just a cultural trait. If you separate two identical twins at birth, and educate one in a loving environement and the other in a inhumane and violent one, you'll find that not even genetics are a form of determinism. The same happens all over the world, with entire peoples. Let one develop in a culture of war and money adoration, and you'll find the fruits. The "trees" are everywhere: in the idolatry of wealth, in the next mall, that is alaways full while the next church is empty, in movies who transport the cult of money and violence to all the corners of the planet. Thus not to speak of the evil perpretated by unjust or criminal institutions and systems.
Forgive me if it seems that I'm lecturing you, who are so much learned than I am. But you can believe that I wrote only because I have so much respect for your Christian thought.

Dear Mr. Tammeus,

Allow me to share with you a much more articulate comment than mine:

http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1205