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PDF versionThe 'had it' Catholics
by Tom Roberts on Oct. 11, 2010
25th in a series
Patty Fitzpatrick spent years wrestling with Catholicism, mustering the will to show up at church with her husband and two children, pushing back against teachings she didn’t agree with and attitudes about women that made Sunday Mass a weekly occasion for anger. Pope John Paul II’s pronouncement that women would never be ordained and that Catholics were forbidden to even think or speak about such an eventuality sent her over the edge.
She started meeting with a small group of other angry and distressed Catholic women in the Kansas City, Mo., area. Ultimately, she tired of complaining about the church, stopped going, and began attending St. Andrew Christian Church in nearby Olathe, Kan., a Disciples of Christ congregation. She’s never looked back.
For more of the story The 'had it' Catholics.
What's your point? That
What's your point? That catholicsm would have more followers if we did what you propose?
Well, we have some data on that. The anglcians. If number of members measures success, the Anglcians show your ideas lead to failure.
Boy oh boy is this line ever
Boy oh boy is this line ever getting tiresome. As a female in the Roman Catholic Church, I find it most irritating. The Pope clarified this matter and the case is closed, so get over it.
If you don't agree with the Church's teachings, please by all means go somewhere else. There are other denominations waiting for you with open arms. Have the courage of your convictions.. Leave already. Patty Fitzpatrick did the honorable thing in leaving. I pray that someday she sees the light and returns. But in the meantime, hats off to her for just doing the right thing and going off to where the teachings are suited to her feelings on the matter. Good on you Patty. Now if only the rest would follow you.
I'm an old man, Lois, but you
I'm an old man, Lois, but you sound young and institution bound. I was there myself at one time. But the time came when I realized how the institution has been dragged kicking and screaming into embracing ideas we now take for granted. If I had followed previous "teachings" of the church, I would be against democracy, against freedom of conscience, against freedom of religion, against ecumenism, for slavery, for war, against separation of church and state, etc. etc..
But one by one these "false teachings" have become parcel and fabric of the modern church. One day, the institution, never shamed by its stubborn blindness, will say about women priests: "As we have always believed and taught...."
I am not all that young
I am not all that young Sarto, lol, but I appreciate you thought so.
Funny but I don't remember anything being taught to me by the good sisters about democracy being wrong. It was always the Communists that were disparaged. As for freedom of religion, we were always taught we were very lucky to live somewhere where we were free to hold our beliefs; many were not so lucky at that time and to this very day still do not have that right/priviledge. It was and is our duty to live our faith so to speak, and under the law of the land we had and still have that right. As for the rest of the "teachings" you mention, they are mostly of a secular nature as opposed to the teachings of the Roman Catholic faith. Somehow our identity as Roman Catholics has been lost to the secular nature of the world. The Church is not a democracy and I personally have no problem with that. I love and trust our Holy Father and I truly believe that if people were faithful to the timeless teachings of the Church we would have heaven on earth. But we are only human and our sinful nature will always get in the way of that potential reality. I bid you well dear, may God bless you.
Lois, With a little research,
Lois,
With a little research, I think you will find that there have been periods when the Roman Catholic Church has been against democracy, against modern thinking and against reason. I recommend to you the book by Hans Kung, "The Catholic Church: A Short History." He is at times over the top, but all in all, this is an eye opening book.
Peace.
Two word which discredit you
Two word which discredit you as a person who fails to think clearly: Hans Kung.
Modern thinking didn't exist before...the modern period. Stop playing in the sandbox of relativism and maybe someone will listen to you.
It is clear that your
It is clear that your education in Catholicism is deficient, and began in the mid-20th century. You need to do some serious work in order to truly know what your church has taught at different times in history, and how, eventually, it caught up with the rest of christianity when it could no longer remain totally mired in the prejudices and falsehoods it taught as "Truth". Even reading the Syllabus of Errors would be a small start. Then the war against "modernism."
You might want to study the church's teachings on slavery (not officially renounced until Vatican II, although unofficially condemned in the late 19th century by Leo - long after Quakers, Methodists, Anglicans etc had condemned it). You need to study the Sermons against the Jews by "Saint" John Chryosstom, and many other writings and teachings of the church that became the foundation of christian anti-semitism from the earliest centuries of christianity. You can study the church's role in the persecution and burning of "witches", as well as of "heretics." Until you truly know and understand the church's history, including the roots of many of its current teachings, you are in no position to judge others nor to offer any kind of honest "defense" of current church teachings. You need to educate yourself beyond a naive, parochial school, children's catechism level.
Wrong.
Wrong. http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907fea2.asp
As Sarto noted, you come
As Sarto noted, you come across as comparatively young. It took Vatican II, for instance, to finally acknowledge religious liberty. When I was in parochial school, for instance, Protestantism was looked down upon by Holy Mother Church. One of the earlier popes condemned "Modernism", a concept that embraces much of what we consider God-given freedoms today.
Here are some main principles
Here are some main principles of the Modernism you seek to embrace:
1. God cannot be known and proved to exist by natural reason
2. External signs of revelation, such as miracles and prophecies, do not prove the divine origin of the Christian religion and are not suited to the intellect of modern man
3. Faith is a blind religious feeling that wells up from the subconscious under the impulse of a heart and a will trained to morality, not a real assent of the intellect to divine truth learned by hearing it from an external source.
None of that has to do with 'God given freedoms.' It's simply error. I take it you agree with Modernism, then?
BTW, our separated Protestant brothers, while they do have some of the Truth, do not have the fullness of the Truth. The Second Vatican Council didn't change that.
"Here are some main
"Here are some main principles of the Modernism you seek to embrace..."
How do you know which particular "principles" of Modernism I embrace???
'Modernism' is a mighty big word in its meaning.
Matthew 18:3 "And said: Amen
Matthew 18:3 "And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
I am young at heart, and a happy person. I appreciate all your efforts to explain things to me. That being said, I'll take the Holy Father's teachings over Hans Kung every and any day of the week.
Sorto, I am young and have
Sorto, I am young and have seen the destruction your generation has caused to Church, I accuse you and your pathetic generation for the evils that have been unleashed upon the Church. I reject tolerance and liberalism as a rule, I pray for the day that liberals are violent rooted out the Church from the Vatican to the local Parish, one day I will stand over the broken ideas of liberalims and smile
Now that you've finished
Now that you've finished reading the Old Testament, please, for the sake of your soul, move on to the New Testament!
My soul needs no help
My soul needs no help certainly not from a Vatican II liberal, typical liberal response cannot and will not answer any of the factual charges I have made against your entire generation. May it soon die off
"If you don't agree with the
"If you don't agree with the Church's teachings, please by all means go somewhere else. There are other denominations waiting for you with open arms."
To suggest Catholics embrace what you and they know to be erroneous teachings outside the Catholic Church by embracing other faiths, constitutes counseling others to commit likely acts of apostasy and heresy. A repudiation of the Holy Spirit.
You should be watchful of your own salvation and less preoccupied with efforts to encourage others to endanger their salvation.
Poor Desiderius Erasmus. Critical of the corrupt Church of the 16th century, but who remained faithful to the Catholic Church, would have endangered his soul had he followed your advice and the prevailing advice of his day: " If you don't like what you see Desiderius, just pick up your dress and jump over the wall to the Lutherans."
For one so concerned about
For one so concerned about Patty's soul, it never entered into your head it may have been an underlying discernment that made her so angry.
The Holy Spirit works that way you know.
With what has come to light without me going into it, it's a wonder there is anyone sitting in the pews, maybe due to the horror, they've become stunned mullets.
For you to take this rhetorical stand it could very well be your soul that needs to be taken care of; one who is acceptor of all that endangers.
I wish more folks inside the
I wish more folks inside the Roman Catholic Church had the courage of their convictions at odds with official teaching and leave. But too many, clergy and laity, don't and remain, quislings destroying from within. Those that leave, at least, have the integrity to match their actions with their beliefs.
Has Sister Chittister "had
Has Sister Chittister "had it" yet? Or, perhaps she will "have it" tomorrow?
Wheresoever goes the Reverend
Wheresoever goes the Reverend Sister Joan Chittister OSB, there also the Holy Roman Catholic Church goes.
and I as well.
(see the Book of Ruth)
Whever you go, I shall go.
For greater insight, even in Texas, please read her latest commentary on the Rule of Saint Benedict, just now published.
We ARE the Church.
Where we go, the Church goes, Tex.
Get over it!
Come along!
Come to the desert, to a place apart
beyond the professional clerics, the professionally pious, who believe, deluded, that they are the Church, and in charge of the Church.
They are not
the Church is one
count me in
the pilgrim people of God
Wowee, Pope Joan has just
Wowee, Pope Joan has just been enthroned by Mr. Scanlon. What do you call this new church you have created? Oh, and thanks for a great laugh!
Seriously though, God looks after the real Church; you get to decide if you want to follow Him. He would like you to. As would the saints, the angels, me. And no, I am no saint. But the saints are there for me, setting an example and my guardian angel helps me stay on the right path. The Good Lord listens to me and answers my prayers, for which I am thankful. The Holy Father explains and rightly defends the faith, which is his duty as the Successor of St. Peter and Christ's representative on Earth. I could go on, but you get the picture. Vertical thinking is required to grasp this. Horizontal thinking alone only leads to nothingness.
As for your church, well good luck with that horizontal thinking.
humility is a principle
humility is a principle virtue of our faith
Blessed are the meek
read the RUle of Saint BEnedict
with the sympathetic assistance of the Reverend Sister Joan Chittister OSB, past president of US Prioresses, in her commentary newly revised and republished for this new millenium
"place apart beyond the
"place apart beyond the professional clerics, the professionally pious, who believe, deluded, that they are the Church, and in charge of the Church."
Charles' is really saying 'Those guys aren't the really pious ones, not like ME. I'm not deluded, I'm a really REALLY pious one.'
He then goes on to say:
'humility is a principle virtue of our faith'
True, Charles, one you would do well to learn it seems. Your entire last two posts basically boil down to you declaring 'I give Thee thanks that I am not like other men, that I'm not like that publican over there.'
It's good to know that the 'Progressive Catholic' principle of withholding judgment of others' Faith can be set aside when it flatters you to do so.
gosh, pete, thanks for
gosh, pete, thanks for clarifying what I am REALLY saying . . .
NOT!
You only started to "have it"
You only started to "have it" when they didn't agree with you? So your god really is only a reflection of yourselves, writ large.
The whole thing is stupid. If you had half a brain, you would have "had it" years ago and saved yourself a lot of time, trouble and money.
How interesting that the
How interesting that the story of the destruction of the Lady of Guadalupe mural in Denver comes out along with this essay. The comments to that article would indicate that the vandalism of the mural was only the most visible sign of the destruction of an active, loving parish. How many people in that parish have now decided that they've "had it", and walked away?
Archbishop Burke just
Archbishop Burke just recently gave a speech that applies to those people, lay or clergy, who seek to change the Church to fit their own image. I'm paraphrasing but it kinda sounded like "Get in line!"
It is intellectual crap to
It is intellectual crap to say that only the Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth and that other faiths do not. The Holy Spirit knows no boundaries established by men.
Thank you, Fr. Miller, for
Thank you, Fr. Miller, for being honest. So many priests I know believe the same, but will speak only the "company line" when it comes to intellectual honesty about new discoveries in science, psychology and culture that should impact conventional faith.
I see so many instances of arrested faith development in people who have never gone beyond their 1950's understanding. The comments of so many of the individuals above point to very limited scholarship and learning about our faith.
"Intellectual crap" The ever
"Intellectual crap" The ever high standards of the National Catholic Reporter
"Intellectual crap." Tellin'
"Intellectual crap."
Tellin' it like it is.
Effective communication.
The Pope may well have said
The Pope may well have said that the dialogue (if it was ever that) about female Ordination is closed. However he was not speaking infallibly, as such it is only his opinion and not teaching. We are therefore at liberty to discuss, inform and discern as we are led by the Holy Spirit.
It is an incorrect understanding of Church teaching to believe that whenever a Pope speaks we must all agree without question.
"[JPII] was not speaking
"[JPII] was not speaking infallibly [about women's ordination]."
So true!
Even Ratzinger at the time acknowledged as much.
Furthermore, JPII's assertion that current official teaching reflects the teaching of the ordinary universal magisterium is without foundation.
Canon 749.3 places the burden for infallible teaching on its proponent(s), i.e., the pope and/or the world body of bishops in communion with him. Such teaching must be "clearly established".
To date, neither a pope nor the world body of bishops has satisfied this canonical requirement.
In the meantime, valid women's ordinations to the presbyterate and episcopate continue.
If you ladies want to be
If you ladies want to be ordained, get to the Episcopal church where this can be done right now. The Catholic Church through the authority of Christ Himself will forever ordain men only and this will never change so quit your cackling and give it up. You women can be priestesses right now in the Episcopal church so go there! Don't wait! Leave and go RIGHT NOW!
Men will never have the privilege of carrying a baby. Women will not be ordained. While our souls are all equal before God it must be acknowledged that men and women are not equal but equivalent and complementary.
Priests reflect Christ and His Church, the Bridegroom and Bride. There is a necessary male priesthood for this relationship to be right and proper. So, ladies, you're going to love the Episcopal church. You can be ordained, perform a gay marriage, shill for abortion, and pretty much neglect traditional theology. You have it all in Anglicanism so why aren't you beating down the doors of Canterbury? They need you, the poor dears.
At the altar, during a marriage, there are two men and one woman but only in the Episcopal church can you find the woman performing the marriage of the two men!
After reading all these
After reading all these comments, I thank God for Jesus Christ, His only Son, Our Lord. This is the first time I am perusing NCR material and I detect quite a bit of acrimony and bitterness in many of the comments and articles. The Apostle Paul counsels us to be rooted and grounded in our faith in Jesus Christ. I thank God that I don't have to go to a temple in Jerusalem to worship Him and that I can pray, as I have done, in a foxhole or a mosque, and even in my own bedroom and feel His love and forgiveness. The scriptures tell us that we have all sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord. Despite what many say I will continue to follow Him and His teachings and not those of sinful mankind, regardless of the letters behind their names etc.
If you are working for peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit, I am with you! Isn't that what Paul calls "The Kingdom of God"? Blessings and Shalom!
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