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PDF versionIn wake of sex abuse scandals, priests to host Latin Mass
by Joshua J. McElwee on Jun. 21, 2011
KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- With many questioning the Kansas City-St. Joseph diocese over allegations of sexual misconduct by clergy, and subsequent inaction by diocesan officials, several priests here are planning something they hope will "promote unity" among the faithful: A special Latin-language "Solemn High Mass."
The Mass, to be held June 29 at Our Lady of Perpetual Help Catholic Church here, is to be celebrated in the "Extraordinary Form," or according to the 1962 edition of the Roman Missal, which typically includes prayers in Latin and the priest facing towards the altar during the celebration.
News of the Mass comes as the Kansas City diocese has been rocked by three cases of allegations of sexual misconduct by clergy in recent weeks.
One priest was arrested on charges of possession of child pornography May 19, but the diocese had waited five months before taking evidence to the police. Another pastor was removed from ministry June 3 over allegations of sexual abuse of minors dating back to the 1970s and '80s. It came to light June 9 that a man had accused the diocesan vicar general of sexual misconduct four years ago over an incident that had occurred in 1984.
Acknowledging the "discord and disunity during this present darkness," organizers of the Mass write that they want to "promote unity, which is borne of a common history or tradition -- hence why we have opted for a Solemn High (Traditional) Mass."
Announcement of the Mass came via an e-mail letter from the diocesan worship office yesterday.
"How glorious will it be to see those of your fold theretofore unacquainted...kneeling next to one another in the pews!" exhorts the letter. "Amidst all the discord and disunity during this present darkness, let there be light!"
Organizers say EWTN may shoot footage of the Mass for broadcast, which will be offered for the intentions of Bishop Robert Finn and for "unity among his flock."
Fr. Shawn Ratigan, a local pastor whose computer was found to contain child pornography in December, was moved to a religious sisters’ community in January. He lived there for five months before his May 19 arrest.
Another local pastor, Fr. Michael Tierney, was removed from active ministry June 2. Tierney had been accused of misconduct earlier, and a lawsuit alleging abuse was filed against him in 2010. The diocese review board had found the earlier allegation not credible. But in May the board met with one person whose allegations they did find credible and also received information from two other individuals making accusations against Tierney.
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“Fr. Tierney continues to deny these allegations," the diocese said in a statement June 2.
Finn received a letter accusing Msgr. Robert Murphy, the vicar general, of sexual misconduct four years ago, The Kansas City Star reported June 9. As vicar general, Murphy received cases of allegations of sex abuse by church workers and made recommendations about how to handle the cases, including which cases to send to the review board.
Ratigan, 45, who is being held on $200,000 bond, has pleaded not guilty. He made a brief court appearance June 16. The case was continued to July 21.
Ratigan’s computer was first found to have images of child pornography in December.
The principal of the elementary school attached to the parish where Ratigan served also wrote a letter a year ago, addressed to Murphy, detailing concerns teachers and parents had about Ratigan’s interactions with children.
In a press conference May 27, Finn told reporters that Murphy briefed him about principal Julie Hess’ May 19, 2010, letter at the time but that Finn himself had not read it.
Brian Heydon, a local licensed professional counselor, wrote a letter to Finn in 2007 alleging that Murphy had propositioned him for sex in 1984 after the two had met to discuss a possible vocation the priesthood.
In a May 4, 2007 letter responding to Heydon, Finn wrote that while the accusation “has given rise to serious discussions and considerations,” it “does not square with others’ life-long knowledge of this priest.”
“As troubling as these accusations are, I cannot conclude that they are compelling in their most serious claims,” wrote Finn in his letter.
The full text of the letter inviting members of the diocese to the June 29 Mass follows:
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The Holy Mass is being celebrated principally to give much glory to God through the ancient and sacred liturgy that is the Extraordinary Form, with all beauty and reverence. But it is also purposed to promote unity, which is borne of a common history or tradition - hence why we have opted for a Solemn High (Traditional) Mass.
So whether one identifies as a "charismatic" or a "traditionalist" or something in between, we can all appreciate that which has been celebrated by the Catholic Church for hundreds of years. How glorious will it be to see those of your fold theretofore unacquainted, alas even divided by the aforesaid labels, kneeling next to one another in the pews! Amidst all the discord and disunity during this present darkness, let there be light!
Toward this end, we have quite intentionally arranged for three priests of somewhat disparate callings to unite in the celebration of this Holy Mass. Specifically, Canon William Avis of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest will celebrate the Mass, assisted by Fr. John Fongemie of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (deacon) and Fr. Evan Harkins of the Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph (subdeacon). Deacon Wehner, Director of Sacred Liturgy for the Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph, will serve as Master of Ceremonies. Seeing these priests come together for a common end - namely, the greater glory of God - will do more for unification of the flock than a myriad private prayers.
I really hope you can help me in publicizing this event. Because this Mass is being offered for the intentions of Bishop Finn and for unity among his flock, and because footage of the Mass is potentially to be acquired by EWTN, we are really hoping for a full house.
Amazing...you really couldn't
Amazing...you really couldn't even make up this stuff if you tried!
I don't know what they have
I don't know what they have been spoken, but I'll take a kilo, please!
Maybe they should also promote buying pagan babies, too.
Presume you mean "smoking"
Presume you mean "smoking" instead of "spoken", Jim. :-) Must be good stuff!
Unbelievable! Are there any
Unbelievable! Are there any clerics who are appalled at this venture? Will you speak up? Kansas City—will you support this? Unbelievable! I have to pinch myself to be sure that I am not dreaming. You can’t make this stuff up!
Your comment seems to
Your comment seems to indicate that "clerics" should be "appalled" at "this venture". If I read your comment correctly, you think Catholic priests should be appalled that a Catholic Mass in a form approved by the Church is to be celebrated for the intentions of the Ordinary of the Diocese, to whom these priests have made promises of obedience.
I hope this doesn't accurately encapsulate the attitude of all NCR readers towards the Mass. It doesn't speak well of them if it does.
The Latin Mass was approved
The Latin Mass was approved by the pre-Tridentine church, and the Second Vatican Council changed that so that the real church - the people of God - could understand the Mass and worship God knowingly. The Latin Mass has been brought back by Benedict in and effort to reinstate the mystery surrounding the priest and to keep the laity in "their place," which according to him, is in the dark. Priests should be appalled by this. First of all, as it is a throw-back to the days that fostered sexual abuse by priests, and second, because it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SEXUAL ABUSE MATTER or this horrific mistake/crime committed by Bishop Finn. How does a Latin Mass correct that? Or is it simply a ploy to take the spotlight off of him?
Actually the Latin Mass never
Actually the Latin Mass never left, and if someone wants to say a pope brought it back, then that has to be Pope John Paul II in 1988.
Gabe, A little history....the
Gabe,
A little history....the 2nd Vatican Council did not give us the vernacular Mass. It opened its 1st session and closed its last session with the same Mass referenced by the writer of this article. Anyone here shocked that Catholic people would resort to celebrating Mass in response to events such as these must spend little time around Catholics.
Churches can't change and
Churches can't change and remain credible because God and divine law are eternal and inalterable.Vatican II was valid only to such extent that it agreed with all that went before.You will not find a traditionalist who opposes the laity learning Latin so as better to understand the Roman Catholic liturgy in its original and common language.The "real church" is those who believe the unchanged "deposit of faith",not those who claim the label.
Louis, It's obvious you're an
Louis, It's obvious you're an SSPX heretic. Your knowledge of the Church is abysmally lacking. Latin is not the original language of the Roman Church. If you want a language which is TODAY's lingua franca, the universal language of the Church is English.
Furthermore, you said, "The "real church" is those who believe the unchanged "deposit of faith",not those who claim the label." This is not only heretical, it so absurd as to be laughable.
Actually, Louis is 100%
Actually, Louis is 100% correct that the "real Church" consists of the faithful, and NOT just people who call themselves "Catholics." To say so, as he does, is not only NOT "heretical" as you meanly accuse him, but to the contrary is consistent with nearly 2000 years of Tradition and consistent with the words of our Lord in the gospels themselves (Matthew 7: 22-23).
Also, I think it is most uncharitable and unreasonable of you to throw around terms like "heretic" and "heretical" at a person whom you don't even know and whom didn't even say anything remotely heretical. Heresy is a an incredibly serious charge, and if you don't have the evidence to support such a charge, you should not be throwing the term around so casually. As you didn't even bother to ask for clarification, you are not even giving the man a chance to be corrected (assuming he was wrong, which again, he is not). Af you encounter a person with erroneous beliefs, you must charitably correct him at least TWICE before deeming him a heretic (Titus 3:10).
You are correct that Latin is not the original language of the Church, but you are wrong that English is the lingua franca. Latin is the official language of the Church in all six Rites, as well as the lingua franca, and has been for hundreds of years.
Additionally, priests in the SSPX are not "heretics." If you think that they are, then you are outside of communion with the pope, as the SSPX has never been declared "heretical" and has never taught heresy. The excommunications rendered against some in the SSPX in the 1980's were for disobedience, not heresy, and all of those excommunications have since been lifted, and all of the charges have been retracted, including posthumously for those who are dead. It is inaccurate to call the SSPX "heretics."
I don't understand the vitriolic animosity towards Tradition seen in some comments here. The term "pre-Tridentine" used above doesn't even make sense: "Tridentine" means "in regards to the Council of Trent," which is the council (in 1545) that formalized the Mass used in the Latin Rite to this day. Thus to say "pre-Trindentine Church" is to say "the Church before the Council of Trent," as if there are different "Churches" that happen during different periods. There is only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church (the Four Marks), the Bride of Christ, and she does not metamorphose between periods or councils.
The Tridentine Mass was the exclusive form in the Latin Rite for 410 years, and is not something to be scoffed at or hated. As this article mentions, the Tridentine (Trent) Mass is still around and was never revoked, though today it is called the "Extraordinary form" because the "Ordinary form" is the Novus Ordo vernacular organized and promulgated after Vatican Council II for the Latin/Western Rite. A priest needs no one's permission (not a layperson's nor a bishop's) to celebrate either form, as both are valid. Please remember that there are some five other particular Rites (Byzantine, Antiochian, Chaldeon, Armenian, Alexandrian) in the Catholic Church in addition to the majority Latin Rite, and some of these Rites have NEVER done the Novus Ordo Missae. Does that make them "heretics" or bad in some way? Should we scold priest of these Rites for daring to do the Mass as they have for hundreds of years? Good heavens, no!
"Pre-Tridentine Church"??
"Pre-Tridentine Church"?? "The Real Church"?? And to attribute to Pope Benedict the desire to keep the laity "in their place" is both repugnant and vile. And when considering what exactly "fostered" the evils of priest sexual abuse...it occurs to me that the dates of the abuse indicated here are all from the post "real-church" period. I'm not drawing a cause and effect here, but let's get the facts straight please.
And why the uproar? So a group of priests feels that the liturgical form that best expresses forgiveness, unity and faith is the Extraordinary Form. You don't feel that way. They do. They are the Priests, and they are the ones saying the Mass. You do not have to go. You don't have to go to Mass at all. Why is this sticking in your mind?
I am commenting on all the
I am commenting on all the previous comments about the wonderful "Latin" Mass. For God sakes people, the early church did not celebrate the " Tridentine Mass. The early church came together and celebrated the breaking of the bread and the drinking of the wine as Jesus asked them to do in remembrance of Him. There was no Latin used in those times. So why the big emphasis on Latin as if that is what is sacred in our liturgies. Those of you who are rewriting Vatican II are basically misinforming the Catholics who will go along with anything and not educate themselves. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
And for that matter, shame on John Paul II, on Benedict and all of our present day Cardinals and bishops for supporting this farce. The early Church celebrated their liturgy in the vernacular. This going back to Latin and saying we can not partake of the "wine" at Mass and only the priest can do so is absolutely arrogant and the sign of a failing institution. All they who espouse these Middle Ages practices and want to keep us infants in our religious and spiritual development will bring down the church. Their criminal activity does not give them any credibility either. I pray their hearts may be changed by the Holy Spirit.
Well stated
Well stated
There are a whole lot more
There are a whole lot more bishops hiding in their chanceries. The hierarchy's riddled with these pontificating, holier-than-thou whitened sepulchres.
Not one thin dime to any church or diocese until these guys are out!! It's time for the laity to take over the entire personnel system of the Catholic Church. NOBODY holds any office without the full participation and the authorization of the laity, NOBODY.
no more divisive mass could
no more divisive mass could have been selected, and broadcast on the highly and explicitly divisve EWTN???
o . . .m . . .g!
maybe if the bishops and clergy went out in the streets tearing their gowns putting on sack cloth and tossing buckets of ashes over their humbled heads in sincere remorse and penitence seeking forgiveness for the great harm done, now that might start something useful. . .
but this very divisive Mass??
shows how far off they have flown.
The Catholic Mass that dates
The Catholic Mass that dates back to the beginning of Christianity is not divisive, is the essence of the Church which it seems you don't you appreciate.
The Vatican II movement and the founding of a new Church has brought not just the destruction of the Catholic Liturgy but also the tremendous sex abuse scandals we face today, it seems to me that God has punished those people that supports Vatican II in order to teach to be Faithful to the Christian doctrine and avoid any kind of innovations the could very well be applauded by the heretics of the protestant revolution.
The Catholic Mass does not
The Catholic Mass does not date back to the beginning of CHristianity. Please check your facts before making such a sweeping claim. The Mass evolved over centuries from the early communal ritual meals the early Christians held in their homes. There was NO Mass in early Christianity.
The sex abuse has been going
The sex abuse has been going on for over 1000 years. Do not buy into the misinformation that Benedict and his cronies are trying to sell you. The "60's" and Vatican II did not have a hand in starting the sexual abuse situations. It was do to the great advancements in human rights (the Civil Rights movement and the horror of the Holocaust) and the advent of modern technology, education for all(even for women...OMG) that has brought the sexual abuse crisis become front page news. The Holy Spirit is in control not these so called leaders of the Catholic Church. And to me the Holy Spirit is really ticked off at the heirachs who act like they haven't done anything wrong. Unbelievable isn't it? And yet they ask us to stand up against abortions and be pro life. May I ask you how can you be pro-life and then let our children be raped and then protect the rapists and demean the children and their parents?
The only reason the heirachy is running back to the Middle Ages and literally lying about Vatican II is because the heirachs will lose their power and control and they know it. We are called for a more collegial form of church and not a power and control Catholic church.
People are leaving in droves do to the sexual abuse crimes against humanity perpetuated not by Vatican II but by the clericalism of the Catholic Church which began long before Vatican II. Like those protesting on Wall Stand other big business areas throughout the country,the Catholics of the world need to stand up and say "No More" to Tridentine Masses, to New Missals, to all their little petty rules they are running back to and hiding behind. Do not walk away...stand up for the Holy Spirit. Jesus was not into "power and control."
Well, I believe you have to
Well, I believe you have to admit that there Is one advantage in having the Mass said in Latin. The congregation doesn't have to be subjected to the celebrant constantly interjecting his personal pieties throughout the Mass. Also, should this catch on, we can look forward to the traditional Low Mass a/k/a "The Lavallette Special." Those from Jersey will know what I mean.
Well, I believe you have to
Well, I believe you have to admit that there Is one advantage in having the Mass said in Latin. The congregation doesn't have to be subjected to the celebrant constantly interjecting his personal pieties throughout the Mass. Also, should this catch on, we can look forward to the traditional Low Mass a/k/a "The Lavallette Special." Those from Jersey will know what I mean.
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LOL LOL, You obviously weren't around before Vatican II or you'd know better. Did it ever occur to you quite a few priests from the pre-Vatican II period may not have been interjecting their "personal pieties", but they surely were interjecting a lot more than that, especially around children.
Is there anything from New Jersey that couldn't in a sense be considered "special"?
How about a covered dish? I'm
How about a covered dish? I'm sure Finn could come up with some recipes to die for. Just a little wishful thinking on my part.
Mike Ference
@anonymous: Yeah you can make
@anonymous: Yeah you can make this stuff up and they are!
They are ruining innocent priests too!
several priests here are
several priests here are planning something they hope will "promote unity" among the faithful: A special Latin-language "Solemn High Mass."
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I can think of nothing better to bring more child buggering clergy in their lace dresses, birettas, and fiddlebacks out of the woodwork than a good Tridentine Mass.
Wanting to show unity can be
Wanting to show unity can be a good thing. Wanting to show compassion for wounded kids, we submit, is better. And wanting to show those who are suffering (whether adult victims or child victims), that you want abuse to stop and to be reported, we submit, is best of all. (That's especially true in Kansas City and especially true now in light of the recent disturbing revelations of very recent crimes and cover ups there.) But apparently that’s not particularly a priority for some.
We fear that "showing unity" will seem, to some (especially victims, witnesses and whistleblowers) much likek "circling the wagons" and "backing the bishop."
David Clohessy, Director, SNAP, Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, (7234 Arsenal Street, St. Louis MO 63143), 314 566 9790 cell (SNAPclohessy@aol.com)
Nothing, absolutely nothing
Nothing, absolutely nothing the church does will ever satisfy this man, even praying in time of trouble. When mistakes are made, people come together to pray and seek reconciliation. I have to wonder what kinds of demons he's still wrestling with that makes him so knee-jerk negative.
" . . .somewhat disparate
" . . .somewhat disparate callings to unite in the celebration of this Holy Mass. Specifically, Canon William Avis of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest will celebrate the Mass, assisted by Fr. John Fongemie of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (deacon) and Fr. Evan Harkins of the Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph (subdeacon)."
So, how does having three wonks from highly ultra-"conservative" groups prance about in a dead liturgy promote unity? Explicitly as this letter ends it is only seeking greater commercial glory for EWTN!
earth to Finn: we are dying of hunger down here, with no jobs and no health care and no housing and no education. Want unity? Bring out the Liberation Theology and hear the just aspirations of the preferential poor, and ACT!
Not to hate on you too much,
Not to hate on you too much, but the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite is not a dead liturgy. It is very much alive, much more so than any new mass. Just come and visit the Traditional FSSP parish in Sacramento and you will see more 5 year olds that understand the mass than you would ever find at a new mass parish.
Rather, come to the Cathedral
Rather, come to the Cathedral in Ciudad Juarez, with Padre Juanito, who invites all to repeat with him the acclamation after the consecration, whose smilingly and tolerantly and gently welcomes all, with love, in God's Peace, and watch babes in arms who understand.
Come to the real Spanish Mass, in the poorest and most forgotten and abandoned neighborhods and know our faith, in love.
Thank you... I was becoming
Thank you... I was becoming worried that I didn't actually attend Mass for Corpus Christi last night at our EF Parish...and I was beginning to think that I only imagined that the church was full,and that there were a great many children there as well, including our 12 voice Children's Schola that very beautifully and happily sing the chants (in Latin)...and that I imagined the 6 young people receiving First Communion, followed by a beautiful Eucharistic Procession around our neighborhood...yeah, I can see how people would think that this is a "dead" liturgy. Oh yes.. there is that issue of the seminaries for these Orders...seems they keep reaching capacity. Good thing their liturgy is dead, otherwise they would be growing at a far greater rate than the OF...oh...wait a minute...
Just come and visit the
Just come and visit the Traditional FSSP parish in Sacramento and you will see more 5 year olds that understand the mass than you would ever find at a new mass parish.
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Most of the people I see at TLMasses have the intellects of 5 year olds too.
Surely their knowledge of the liturgy and the Church would qualify them as being in that age group as well.
With all respect, you are not
With all respect, you are not clairvoyent. Your statement is intended to attack Mr. Clohessey's motives, and as such, is a violation of the alleged code of conduct for posting here. Moderator, why are personal attacks allowed?
There is a HUGE difference between praying for reconciliation and holding a pep rally for a Bishop who has failed in his duty as horribly as Finn has. I submit for the reader's consideration that justice would satisfy Mr. Clohessey: removal from office for those who betrayed their vows and failed to protect the youth of the Church. Correction of those made honest mistakes, and release of the full truth. But that will not happen in the Roman Church without the intervention of Federal Marshals any more than it would have with the Branch Davidians without the use of a tank.
Fortunately, I am in an area where I can be a Catholic without having to submit to the feudal pretensions of Rome.
I really would like to know
I really would like to know what kind of day job this guy has that allows him to fly all over the country and get his name in the paper in front of a fawning press.
If this is his job, how about a little transparency on the part of SNAP? You know, the kind they are so quick to demand of others? What is the source of their funding and how much of it goes to the victims of clergy sexual abuse that they are so concerned with? If they are a 501(c)3, don't they have to file public reports with the IRS?
And why haven't these questions ever occurred to NCR?
David, with respect, you are
David, with respect, you are missing the point here. The Church is capable of doing more than one thing at one time, and the first, and most important thing that the Church can do is to pray for and with one another.
This does not preclude the Church's taking a firmer stance on the issue of sexual abuse of children. Indeed, prayer is very likely to lead to a continuing dedication to the protection of children. When we pray, we come into contact with the best of ourselves, and come into contact with Our Lord. Fruit of prayer is always beneficial to the Church and to society.
This is not about "circling the wagons", rather it is about fostering unity and healing in the local Church in Kansas City-St. Joseph.
What in all that is holy is
What in all that is holy is more prayerful when one speaks in Latin? It is a dead language and it needs to be dead. Maybe they are celebrating the death of Latin used with people who have no idea what they are saying. And the fact that the priest has his back to you, is disrespectful at best. Anyone out there take Psyc. 101? You know the chapter about body language? Having someone talk to you and or God with his/her back to you is insulting. Oh, but those who want to run back to the Middle Ages with all its power and glory must love to insult people. They certainly insulted time and again the victims of pedophilia and then also turned around and insulted as well as threatened their parents. Shame on you people. You are not living in the real world with its real problems!
Wouldn't it have been great if Jesus spoke Latin or Greek all the time to the crowds that followed Him? And also turn his back to the perplex present? Boy I bet those crowds would have felt that love of God right then and there! NOT!!!!
Get over the Latin Mass people. I lived through it and it wasn't anything to write home about, believe me or don't believe me. You are wrecking the church in the world now and in the future. The Holy Spirit will have a lot of fun sabotaging your choices...
The thing Vatican 2 did and the explosion of technology that followed WWII was make things more transparent and easier to find out dirty little secrets that "MEN" like the hierarchy have been covering up for over 1,000 years.(yes, it didn't start with the "Free Love" of the 60's and 70's)! So they feel by moving back to Latin and putting themselves in their"rightful exalted" place next to God and then moving us to the background and then call us and treat us like sheep who hand over the money when told to, everything will fall in the rightful order. Dear Lord, help us, please!
If I had a problem in my
If I had a problem in my family, or with my children, the last thing I would do is turn my back,speak in a foriegn language, and expect my kids to join in.
With all due respect Joanne
With all due respect Joanne Marie, I think you've got this one backwards. In the Latin Mass the priest isn't turning his back on God at all. He [the priest] is facing the Tabernacle. Our Lord is present in the tabernacle always. The priest does not insult the congregation by turning his back to them; he does this in order to stay focused and be reverent with celebrating Holy Mass.
Clint, the people who put
Clint, the people who put this together aren't asking for our joined prayers.
This isn't about prayer. It's about a clerical show: "Seeing these priests come together for a common end - namely, the greater glory of God - will do more for unification of the flock than a myriad private prayers."
"Seeing" is not praying. The laity is invited to be spectators, an unpaid crowd shot for EWTN cameras, and we're being asked to believe that by doing so they will somehow accomplish more than their 'myriad of private prayers' could hope to accomplish.
This is just way wrong and I would really hope that you could see this is way wrong.
Support and unity for Finn
Support and unity for Finn and the Church. Hmmm...can't see through that one at all. (Ahem)
Pray together. Good. Have a traditional mass for unity among your own...and I think you'll find the only people who show up are the ones who blindly follow. Those who are Catholic that see right through this charade won't be in attendance. We know that for unity in the church to occur, there must be HEALING for the victims of abuse, accountability, honesty, and transparency from the hierarchy and for the people in the pews to demand His justice for those who have commited crimes and cover-up.
The hierarchy continues to insult the intelligence of its parishoners.
You can't undo what you've done...TRUE Catholics who don't have their heads in the sand see this for what it is...a contrived effort to keep the remaining few supporting their beloved church...a way of creating an "in" group and we all know who the "out" group is (anyone who doesn't agree with the hierarchy).
I think I could have respected them more if they would have had a Latin mass for a cleansing of the Church, for Truth to prevail...so He could unite all! Their flock must be embarrassed at their foolishness.
Where is your bother, Kevin
Where is your bother, Kevin Clohessy, David?
Facts About SNAP:
http://www.themediareport.com/topic-SNAP/index.htm
David Pierre
TheMediaReport.com
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Well Mr. Clohessy, if that's
Well Mr. Clohessy, if that's what you fear then by all means we should just dissolve the Catholic Church, and permanently cancel all Masses going forward. All of these things that have alleged to occur are just that, Allegations, not convictions. But that doesn't matter to a person like you. To you anyone in the Church hierarchy is guilty by association. And you will do your part to drag their names through the mud, ruin their lives and reputation based on mere allegations, not fact. I can name countless examples starting with my friend Fr. Kevin Hederman, who's life you ruined b/c some punk kid wanted money. Most of us have no respect for you or your position, which is blindly hateful of Catholicism.
I will be attending this Mass out of my love for Christ's Church and to show that I am backing the Bishops, Priests, Laity, and most importantly Christ, who loves this Church (whether you like it or not).
In the name of unity, they
In the name of unity, they choose the one form of the mass that forbids little girls from serving on the altar. Go figure......
This mass is not a mass of
This mass is not a mass of unity but a mass of support for the Bishop held in one parish so that all the very conservative catholics will have a place to come and participate. Now if they were to try this in all the KC parishes, think how many empty seats this would generate. It is true that there will be some that will come just to see what the dinosaur looks like but this will for them be more of an archeological visit than clear prayers that they can hear and UNDERSTAND. Wow what a narcissistic bunch of self serving scoundrels we have as leaders in the RCC. I continue to be Catholic but there I can actually see evil in some of the men who wear the roman colars of Bishops, Cardinals and Popes. How long will the people of God tollerate this self serving leadership?
"Now if they were to try this
"Now if they were to try this in all the KC parishes, think how many empty seats this would generate."
Well they tried the vernacular mass in all Parishes about 40 years ago and US mass attendance went from 75% each Sunday to 25%...so maybe they ought to try the time-tested Tridentine mass in all KC parishes to reverse this devastating trend.
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/vatrenew.htm
"this will for them be more of an archeological visit than clear prayers that they can hear and UNDERSTAND"
Again, since the advent of the vernacular mass, not only has mass attendance gone down, but so has the average Catholics knowledge of his/her faith. For example: http://www.diocesehelena.org/bishop/column/2008-06.html
To the person who entitled
To the person who entitled themselves surrounded by heretics, your comments are interesting but so incongruent. No one including most of the priests will be able to understand what is being said. Maybe that is well and good as the Bishops think they can continue to survive on secrecy. I think there will, however, be many more children studying Chinese than the all but dead language of Latin. Bringing this dying last gasp of none understanding back into the Church is indicative of the deadening influence that the Roman Bishops have over the Church. We are watching the disintegration of a Roman Church into a small dogmatic cult of MEN with there heads in the sand. Have these masses every sunday in every church and see who attends, and also see who understands.
One thing we all do remember was the verbiage “Dominic go frisk them” at the time of taking up the collection. Soon there will be only small numbers to pay, pray and obey this leadership. There will be the continued jokes and yes little increasing understanding and praising Our Lord in these Churches run by a small personality cult. It is time for the People of God to begin to leave behind this mediaeval man made leadership structure to follow The Way of Christ through their own priesthood of Baptism.
You really drifted away
You really drifted away there, if you actually look at the seminary statistics, and where the better knowledge of the Catholic faith exists, it would be reasonable to conclude that the Latin Mass enhances one's understanding of the faith.
With seminaries pumping out
With seminaries pumping out the neo-fascist reactionaries we're getting, the Church would be better off closing all the seminaries and abolishing the clerical caste altogether. The next step in The Reformation, Part II.
Humanae vitae's censure of
Humanae vitae's censure of birth control had a heck of a lot more to do with the abandonment of the mass than offering mass in the vernacular.
Oh really??? you mean the
Oh really??? you mean the Humanae Vitae that changed nothing? that 80% of all Catholics ignored? that had more to do with the dismal numbers then the radical changing of the Mass that impacted virtually every Catholic?
Your notion is as silly as your name!
The birth control pill only
The birth control pill only became readily available in the early 60's. In fact, it was illegal in some states until the Griswald vs Connecticut Supreme Court decision in the mid 60's. You are probably too young to know that. As to my moniker and your opinion of it, all I can say is "Pot meet kettle.."
If it is true this Latin Mass
If it is true this Latin Mass does not allow altar girls then they need to DUMP IT IN THE SEWER post haste!
The RCC doesn't need any more sickening sexist pollution!
Yes indeed the Extraordinary
Yes indeed the Extraordinary Form of the Mass prohibits altar girls, which is little more than a liturgical abuse. Being an altar boy was often the first step in young men considering responding to the vocation of priesthood.
Sadly having altar girls has led to a decrease in young men serving Mass. The Church sensibly has decided that this trend is not positive, but rather needs to be curtailed for the good of the Church and the priesthood.
Voacations are down because
Voacations are down because of the ill repute brought to the priesthood by pedophile enabling bishops who engineered the biggest clergy scandal in hundreds of years. Who wants to enter a profession where the general public looks at your collar and wonders to themselves whether you too are a pedophile?
ny boy who would stay off the altar because a girl is up there with him is not fit for the priesthood to begin with! We have too many of such priests as it is, and not near enough married priests.
Where there is the Latin
Where there is the Latin Mass, there are vocations. Extraordinary Form orders like the FSSP, and ICKSP have waiting lists for their seminaries, and EF friendly diocese like Lincoln and St. Louis are way ahead of the curve as well. The EF should be ENCOURAGED if your concern is vocations to the priesthood.
And the churches keep closing
And the churches keep closing for lack of priests, on average at least 2 a week in the US.
Again, if vocations are your
Again, if vocations are your concern, then the Latin Mass ought to be embraced, the FSSP, ICKSP, among other Extraordinary Form orders are very young and growing rapidly. The churches that are closing are closing mainly due to population shifts, and having been married to the 60s/70s secular culture and are now finding themselves widowed in the 21st Century.
They are closing because
They are closing because married men (including deacons) and all women are being locked out of the seminaries, pure and simple.
Again you state opinion as
Again you state opinion as though it were fact. It is a fact that the Extra-Ordinary Form mass communities are the ones growing, again I would invite you to look at their websites, renounce your heresy's and attend at one of their mass sites.
And the churches keep closing
And the churches keep closing for lack of priests, on average at least 2 a week in the US.
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This is inexcusable. If there is a viable parish, then members of that parish should take legal control of it and seek solidarity with a local Orthodox or Anglican/Lutheran parish to have it incorporated within their jurisdiction. I'd be talking to their clergy to see what can be worked out.
The diocese's ordinary is more than likely creating mega parishes by combining smaller congregations. These super-sized parishes tend to be administratively unmanageable with a rapidly declining presbyterate and just plain pastoral disasters, with few exceptions. It isn't fair to the priests and the People of God, being presbyters themselves by virtue of their baptism and confirmation, deserve much better than this.
ny boy who would stay off the
ny boy who would stay off the altar because a girl is up there with him is not fit for the priesthood to begin with! We have too many of such priests as it is, and not near enough married priests.
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Exactly and Thanks!!!!
Dear Who Repealed Vatican
Dear Who Repealed Vatican II?, You said "any boy who would stay off the altar because a girl is up there with him is not fit for the priesthood to begin with! We have too many of such priests as it is, and not near enough married priests".
Right on!! We have suffered long enough from centuries and centuries of an institutional framework built upon a lasting foundation of misogyny. Young men who should never have been admitted to seminary (whether they served as an acolyte or not) because of deep-seated psychological factors which went undetected, but later contributed to their perverse behavior. It's been uncovered in recent years and we can expect to see it surfacing again.
The Vatican has learned very little from these heinous crimes and still sees women as temptresses vying with males for authority in the Church. This is the thinking that led to limiting young women from serving at the Tridentine Mass. It's also symptomatic of their own sexual immaturity and repressed resentment, if not hatred, of their own mothers, sisters, former girlfriends, in short all women. The same sickos are still rectors of seminaries polluting the Church with the next generation of child molesters in a self-generating cycle of the dangerously maladjusted.
Any young man in a seminary so obsessed with his costume, with attachments to forms suggesting a certain flare for the theatrical,especially a desire to wear and own surplices and albs with pleats of lace, gaily decorated vestments bordering on the bizarre, and obsesses over the time when he too can obtain a cappa magna needs to be rooted out of the seminary pronto. This should serve as a key indicator to any rector and be a warning signal of serious repressed sexual desires and obsessions.
And yes indeed CWG the RCC in
And yes indeed CWG the RCC in its effort to promote sexism through sacred liturgy is not only nauseating IT POINT BLANK PROVES THE RCC is illigitimate at the level of institution. The RCC liturgically proves its central and foundational basis is the death-dealing sin of sexism.
As it reinstates this back-to-the-future ban on altargirls as one aspect of the several areas where the RCC contributes to the degredation/oppression/disempowerment of women it drives a nail in its own coffin.
It is fraudulent to state any liturgy that excludes anyone on the basis of gender is of the life-liberating, abundently loving, and radical inclusivity of Christ. IT IS NOT.
The sensibility of those in a rigidly patriarchal structure who practice gender apartheid "for the good of the church" (gag) will soon receive a big bomerang of DELEGITIMATION that will snowball into to its own deserved undoing.
Most men approaching
Most men approaching ordination from today's seminaries average age 36. Many never were altar boys. So, it is a myth that being an altar boy furthers vocations. At one time it might, but that isn't true today with so few priests coming out of minor seminaries which took kids right out of the womb.
I have no problem with altar girls at the TLM or the Novus Ordo Mass. I wouldn't give five cents to a parish that discriminated against girls at one liturgy on a Sunday, only to admit them later that day at another NO Mass. Benedict XVI is senile, anal retentive old bungler, and most of the people around him are as well. If not a pack of criminals hiding child molesters.
The subject of altar girls is
The subject of altar girls is very divisive, it was intelligent to take this issue off the table.
Off whose table? As long as
Off whose table? As long as little girls and women are divisively and derisively discriminated against there is an issue of descrimination that DEMANDS justice!
Because of hysterical
Because of hysterical statements like that it was VERY intellegent to choose a mass where these things won't be "discussed".
Because of hysterical
Because of hysterical statements like that it was VERY intellegent to choose a mass where these things won't be "discussed
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Like the sooo intelligent traditional tactic of not talking read not dealing with, the dirty little secret of perverted sexual exploits of celibate Priests? Now that certainly reaped a harvest of plenty didn't it LAU? That's another situation that demands justice and the only people that are going to be HYSTERICAL are the intelligent Prelates that will be paying for it in cash or behind bars.
Church discrimination against women is a huge and growing justice issue ". The sands have shifted. The rock is leaning. Silence and secrecy have kept the church in a greater darkness than the opaqueness it intended for others. In so doing a reciprocity of the Holy Spirit has caused the RCC to blind itself to the erosion of its own foundational legitimacy.
Justice is galluping towards Rome LAU. Hide and watch! Can you hear the hammers? People like you are hitting nails in the RC Coffin. It's the drumbeat of justice and you can't help yourselves. God works in the mysterious ways of unintended consequences. Go on don't discuss a thing. Cut yourself off from a growing problem that will get so big the RCC won't be able to handle it. Music and beauty used to deny a crisis will simply deepen the crisis and no amount of magical thinking will make it disappear!.
This represents the
This represents the hermeneutics of cognitive dissonance.
Unity means... going back in time to a simpler age when the faithful were not expected to understand much of anything. Pomp and incense are not signs of unity. They are signs of wishful thinking.
This reminds me of my youth
This reminds me of my youth growing up in Europe. Mass meant that the priest did one thing (in Latin/Greek), with his back to the people in the pews), while we did "our thing", mostly attending to our personal devotions (such as the rosary). The choir sang Gregorian chant (in Greek/Latin, of course); the people in the pews were encouraged not to join in the singing because "we would just ruin that beautiful chant anyway". High Mass meant the smell of incense, more altar BOYS in festive garb, one or more priests in very traditional and strange-looking vestments, and of course the Gregorian chant (or the occasional 4-part Mass, mostly of little or no artistic value). Basically, what happened up front (priest and altar BOYS, all mumbling in a very foreign-sounding language, understood or not), and in the back (choir), didn't seem to concern the people in the pews who were doing their own thing. Should I also mention the guys in the back of the church on Sundays, playing cards? Or the choir boys fooling around in between the singing? Could this be the result of "the hermeneutics of cognitive (liturgical) dissonance"?
When all went well according to the rules and regulations, the priest looked pleased. When occasionally the bishop showed up, he appeared to feel honored and pleased because of all the attention he received. But I have no idea about what God thought about all this, if He felt pleased.
Are things going to be different this time around? Is the re-installment of that traditional clerical/liturgical culture going to unite us and make us feel better?
But above all, is God going to feel pleased and honored by us, His people, stepping back in time (on orders of some hierarch)? Personally, I don't care to wait around and find out.
BIG SECRET, Henk GAl, promise
BIG SECRET, Henk GAl, promise not to tell?
We altar boys while crouched way down to the floor in a kneeling position (sounds rather suggestive now in the persent context) reciting the Confiteor were more often that not peeking at each other to coordinate our shifting our bowing towards the priest to say and you too Father, and the timing of our thrice beating of our breast, mumbling unintelligibly the whole time!
Later when I got to Regina Laudis and Solesmes, of course, I mastered far better diction than when yet a pre-teen.
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