Latin whiz, 16, finds new liturgy language lacking

Erik Baker is a 16-year-old high school student who has been studying Latin since 6th grade. Now as a senior at Evanston Township High School near Chicago, he has completed all the Latin classes available at his school, including the Advanced Placement courses. He is pursuing his ongoing interest through Latin classes at nearby Northwestern University.

Erik has been raised as a Catholic and attends Mass with his family at the Sheil Catholic Center at Northwestern. Recently, when materials were distributed explaining the new liturgical changes based on the original Latin text, he studied them with special interest.

"When I looked at the new version, I had a sort of knee-jerk reaction," Erik said. "What I saw didn't sit well with me. Yeah, the changes are more literal and faithful to the Latin, but is that desirable? Much of the phrasing and the changes seemed kind of ridiculous."

So he did an analysis and wrote a brief essay, not for class, but just to get his reaction down on paper and out of his system. He said he hadn't read any reviews of the translation before he produced his version. A friend of the family suggested NCR readers might be interested in Erik's critique.

On the revised Roman missal

By Erik Baker

It's definitely a better translation. That's probably the biggest misconception that critics of the recent revision of the General Roman Missal have. They perceive the new translation as some sort of conservative formalization of the text that is only ostensibly more faithful to the Latin. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Though there are some changes that really are no better, and certainly tend towards archaic jargon, the vast majority of the dramatic shifts -- especially to the Confiteor, the Gloria, and the Nicene Creed -- are certainly far more accurate.

In fact, looking over the Latin, it’s quite clear that the former translation didn't even attempt to be literal. So the question clearly isn't "is it a better translation," if "better" is defined in terms of accuracy vis-a-vis the Latin. The question is "is a more accurate translation desirable?" For many that question will seem like a no-brainer. Of course we want to stay as close to the Latin as possible. And yet, I think it's valuable to use these changes as an opportunity to examine the value of the Latin Mass and ultimately the nature of the Mass itself. I think that the conclusions might be startling.

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Let's start at the beginning. The first major change is to the Confiteor, the prayer used in most forms of the Penitential Rite. The new translation translates the adverb "nimis" as "greatly", so that it now reads "I have greatly sinned." It's certainly a dramatic change, but one that's grounded in the Latin. In fact, the word "nimis" means something more than "greatly"; it actually connotes the idea of "excessiveness". The other change is that the Latin "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa" is now translated "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault." This is pretty much a literal translation. So the Latin is solid.

The problem, though, is that the Latin itself seems to be hyperbolically critical of humanity. It might aim to promote humility, but inevitably it fosters guilt instead. It promotes a vision of human nature as overwhelmingly and inexorably sinful-- a vision more in line with the heretical Janesenist doctrine of centuries past than Catholic dogma.

An apologist of the translation reminds us that "the guiding principle of the new translation is a closer adherence to the Latin--not a sharper critique of our virtue." But this makes absolutely no sense. Who cares what the "guiding principle" was? The end result is that the Latin is more condemnatory for no discernible reason. And there is no scriptural grounding for this “sharper critique” either-- the first appearance of the prayer is in 1100 AD, over a millennium after Christ.

The next major change is to the Gloria. Most of the changes are innocuous enough, but there's one at the beginning of the prayer that seems bizarre to me. The familiar "and peace to his people on earth" is changed to "on earth peace to people of good will." Not only is the latter far more awkward in English, but there's also a problematic sentiment implicit in the new phrase. Why are we only praying that people "of good will" receive peace? This seems to say that people who are without "good will" are not deserving of peace.

But what is "good will"? It seems to me that it could either mean "good" in the virtuous sense of the word, or, more specifically, Catholic. In either case, it expresses a profoundly anti-Christian sentiment. The notion that only moral or Christian people deserve peace and our prayers is anathema to everything Jesus ever taught. There is simply no sound reason for abandoning "love your enemies" simply because it’s closer to the Latin. The original Greek text recognizes this, and expresses "goodwill to all people." Ironically, the Latin is then actually a mistranslation of the Greek. This just highlights the fact that the possibility of human error doesn’t disappear when writing church texts. It’s hard to see what inherent reason we have for respecting this highly fallible process.

Finally, I think the changes to the Nicene Creed merit some discussion. As before, all of them have good grounding in the Latin, but it's the Latin that's problematic. The first is the fact that all of the "believe"s are in the first person. This destroys the sense of communal vision found in the "we believe" of the previous translation. Faith becomes something of the individual, by the individual, for the individual -- ironically, a very Protestant idea. Catholicism is supposed to value unity and togetherness.

Furthermore, there are two bizarre translations of particular words in the Latin that sound awkward and even obscure: "consubstantial" and "was incarnate." The former is a translation of the word "consubstantialem" in the Latin, so it certainly resembles the Latin the most. But does that make it a better translation?
Surely not. The first rule that every Latin translator learns is that often Latin words may look like certain long, rare English words -- but comprehensibility matters more. The same applies to "was incarnate." The whole reason why an English translation is used in the first place is so people can actually understand the Mass. For the average churchgoer "consubstantial" is no more comprehensible than "consubstantialem.” Ridiculous words defeat the point of a translation in the first place.

Ultimately, the whole affair just begs the question of why the Latin Mass has any particular spiritual significance. It's certainly not Scripture, and it's often just an amalgamation of various communal prayers used throughout Europe for several centuries. In fact, many early bishops would write their own Masses or translations to best fit their community's needs. And that's the essence of Mass. The reason why we come to Mass in the first place rather than just praying by ourselves is the interaction with others that has spiritual importance. In the Mass the people become the Body of Christ, conceived as the organic whole Paul writes about in the famous passage from 1 Corinthians: “for the body is not one member, but many.”

The problem with the new translation and indeed the notion of a codified Latin Mass at all is that it destroys the communal and egalitarian nature of the act. Rather than an act of communion through which the churchgoer relates to God, it becomes an individualistic act through which the churchgoer relates to "experts" in Rome. It sets certain people above others in terms of their knowledge of a dead language and of dogma -- concerns that clearly distract from the message of God. If the Mass has any meaning, it must be grounded in communal concerns and vision-- not an effort to include as many four-syllable words as possible.

Give this kid his own column!

Give this kid his own column!

KIDS ROCK TOO !! ..........I

KIDS ROCK TOO !! ..........I completely agree,annmp. What a wonderful idea. Thanks also to you, Bob, for this unusual and interesting perspective. Of course, the liturgical changes are just one part of the escalating effort to convert the Church into an even "purer" imperial cult.

For more information on this, please see the NCR comment and related crosslinks under the comment heading, "ARCANE LITURGY AT WAR", accessible by clicking on at

http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/anthony-ruff-accidental-activist .

Love this! Give him his own

Love this! Give him his own column indeed!

"Column," heck! Give him

"Column," heck! Give him B16's job!!

Brilliant! Kudos!

Brilliant! Kudos!

Cudos to this young man.

Cudos to this young man. There is indeed hope for our future young generation if there are more forward thinking persons such as he. I'm old enough to be his grandmother, and I think he has the right idea. The whole change in the wording does nothing to enhance or encourage the youth of today to return to their faith foundations. I remember much of the "old" wording and it did not inspire then, and will not inspire now!! We'll all just feel more guilty......Catholics are tops in the guilt department! We're taking a step backward.........woe to us!! I think this young man should have been part of the trannslation team, but probably his youth would have caused the older men to reject him. We do our youth an injustice, assuming they don't know, understand, or care. Shame on us.

Although words are important

Although words are important we must journey beyond them into the Trinitarian Mystery of the Mass.

Here! Here! The translation

Here! Here! The translation has been here for a year now and I can't bring myself to say it. It has done nothing for our community. I have decided I cant attend mass anymore for the seeable future. I'm terribly disappointed with the way the People of God are treated.

Aileen, what community might

Aileen, what community might that be? I'm sorry that you will not be attending Mass. You are not the first one, though, in history to walk away from Jesus because of human pride and stubborness. I will pray for you.

So,walking away from the Mass

So,walking away from the Mass equates to walking away from Jesus??? Then I guess we must pity all the non-Catholic Christians in this world.

This essay hit the nail on the head -"power" play.

um...yes. what exactly did

um...yes. what exactly did you think was going on at the altar and who do you think resides in the tabernacle? maybe you belong to a new-fangled church that doesn't believe in the real presence of CHRIST in the Eucharist.

Aileen, I'm right there with

Aileen, I'm right there with you, and I know it's not easy. I still try going back to my parish from time to time, but so far it's always too painful. So, the next week i go to a non-c7Catholic church, where I can worship God without being made to feel both sad and angry by the appalling literal translation.

This is a GREAT insight and

This is a GREAT insight and so perceptive.....another way that Rome seeks to isolate the individual from the community, plug into the dualism and keep "control"...what an abuse of a language. Full marks for this article.

I agree with the "give this

I agree with the "give this kid his own column" remark. What a wondrous piece of work. I teach and I can't remember when I saw college work this well done - much less the high school work I've graded! Great job!!

This is an impressive

This is an impressive contribution from a "young voice". Kudos for having a better understanding of the art of translation than the writers of the new translation. You could teach them a thing or two...or three...

Outstanding critique... this

Outstanding critique... this young person has the wisdom of Solomon!!

Erik, this is wonderful. Our

Erik, this is wonderful. Our priest (in Maryland) is also somewhat of a Latin expert and he agrees with everything you have said. Thank you for speaking out. Rita McMullin

There seems to bee some

There seems to bee some issues of credibility here. A search for an "Erik Baker" at Evanston Township High School does indeed show an Erik Baker who was on the Debate Team, but it indicates that he graduated in 2011. This article states that Erik Baker is a 16 year old high school student. How many students named Erik Baker does a high school have? I could be wrong and I am open to correction, but this needs more investigation. Personally, the story seems far-fetched and if it is true, one would have to wonder who put this young man up to this.

While I understand the desire

While I understand the desire to "get to the root" of this question of the identity of the author, I find it irrelevant.

The wisdom and insight of this critique of the "new" translation is frankly inspiring: the author questions the Church's need to define a medieval Latin liturgy including mistranslations of the older Greek) as the truest liturgical expression; he has a personal love of the mass as a way of creating and enriching community; he expresses concern with what he sees as a return to a medieval (I would suggest Augustinian) view of humanity as excessively sinful; he points out the incongruity of a liturgical translation that seems to be un-Christian in its theology.

This is the most cogent piece I have read yet about the new translation. It should be required reading for pastors of parishes, not to mention our bishops.

Milbo, I think you possibly

Milbo, I think you possibly just don't like that a 16 year old kid could be so smart, could articulate his thoughts so well on an issue that maybe you don't agree on. I did a search on that school's website too. One post on Oct 18, 2011, talked about a debate that occurred Oct 15-16. One of the participants was a senior by the name of Erik Baker. This was only a month ago! He will graduate in 2012, and probably be 17 at that age.

Kudos to Erik! He is wonderful. My husband read this article too. I agree with Mona, this should be required reading for all pastors and bishops.

Azul, just trying to get to

Azul, just trying to get to the truth. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking. Do not project your feelings on others. Thank you.

Um, I think Erik needs to lay

Um, I think Erik needs to lay off the Latin and take a few courses in Theology. Also, this could not have been written by a 16-year-old. Even if he has a great vocabulary, his phrasing is way too polished and mature - and presumptuous.

It is well known throughout

It is well known throughout the field of secondary education that there are some high schoolers who possess intellectual abilities of various kinds tht are far beyond grade levels. He is clearly an expert in Latin and is Catholic as well. So it would be more favorable for you, mydogoreo, to "lay off" the unnecessary criticisms and not be quite so presumptuous....awful terms to use anyway. This young man is expressing his informed opinions: can you say the same?

I think it is wonderful to

I think it is wonderful to see someone at his young age who both shows scholarship, and combines it with an indepth knowledge of The Church, obviously from family, church and school. and the fact that he freely uses his talents to freely think about, and analyze a situation. There are those who will not believe his authenticity, but at the age of 16, I have heard and read of young people just as intelligent and talented, though seemingly beyond their years.
It is remarkable that this young man is so objective, and seems to speak to fact, and only relates opinion in the context of the subject.
I wish we would hear of more young Americans use their talents, and apply themselves toward advances that this country has been so famous for....

yes, please, do it: give him

yes, please, do it: give him his own column. I can't believe all this came from a 16 year old, wow!

What a great post in the

What a great post in the context of
everything the NCR stands for.

To paraphrase this young man:
"The translation is more accurate,
which is really incovenient, because it makes
it obvious that the Church doesn't
look like the pageant presented
at the Sheil Catholic Center".

I'm wagering that his only experience
of the church has been through
priests ordained in the 1970s-1980s.

I'll wager that this "kid"

I'll wager that this "kid" knows more about Latin than 90+ % of priests and 110% of bishops.

But, hey, he's only a "kid," so why should anyone give his expertise any credence, right? And, even worse, he isn't ontologically altered into a state of demanded deference.

This young man has made an

This young man has made an utter fool out of the Vox Clara bunglers who ruined the ICEL's work. More proof not only is Benedict XVI not infallible, he doesn't even know what's going on around him.

The Pell Missal is a permanent mark on the Pope and the Church's escutcheon.

This young man has made an

This young man has made an utter fool out of the Vox Clara bunglers who ruined the ICEL's work. More proof not only is Benedict XVI not infallible, he doesn't even know what's going on around him.

The Pell Missal is a permanent mark on the Pope and the Church's escutcheon.

What's an escutcheon? Please

What's an escutcheon? Please use english words.

An escutcheon is a shield, as

An escutcheon is a shield, as in a coat of arms. "A blot on the family escutcheon" was a popular and slightly frivolous phrase common in the early 20th century describing the disgrace a family would feel when one of its members disgraced himself. Somewhat archaic now...

"Please use english words

"Please use english words ..." ... english (as the name of a language) takes a capital "E."

But his knowledge of latin is

But his knowledge of latin is beside the point. All he really says is that he doesn't like the original anyways...He actually thinks the translation is quite good. It's the actual texts of the Mass that he doesn't like.

But maybe you wouldn't really

But maybe you wouldn't really like any translation, maybe you would like the Latin text and only the latin Mass. If that's the case you should be honest about it. But if it isn't the case and you want the Mass in English then what's your criterion for the best translation. Ironically an absolute literal translation can miss the meaning of the original; it can be unfaithful to the original. Why? Texts are always texts in contexts. Meanings of texts are determined by contexts An absolute literal translation takes the text out of context; it invents a new text, a new meaning.

"..he doesn't like the

"..he doesn't like the original anyway"....in some cases, he is appealing to the true original, which was Greek....we have to be careful what we mean by "original" here....;

Certainly one person can

Certainly one person can disagree with what a writer says, but that disagreement should be with the substance of what the writer says rather than an attack on what the critic assumes is the reason behind the argument. Respond regarding the beauty of the Latin, the importance of accurate translations, the need for a different language or theology in liturgy. But making a gratuitous slam on Erik's reasons for writing and on the Sheil Catholic Center (in which you have clearly not spent any time)simply weakens your position.

What this young man has

What this young man has touched upon is the ridiculous fetish of requiring that prayers which had evolved for a thousand years before cast in Church Latin somehow be required to be frozen at that level, translation errors and all, for all time.

He is to commended and encouraged.

Well, "Anonymous," at least

Well, "Anonymous," at least he signs his name.

Readers and writers often

Readers and writers often disagree, but when a reader disagrees with a writer the strong argument will be substantive and based on what the writer said, not what the reader paraphrases based on wrong assumptions. Argue about theology, the beauty of the Latin, the joy of language that is out of the ordinary. Making a gratuitous slam on what you think Erik is "really" saying and on the Sheil Catholic Center (in which clearly you have never set foot) simply weakens any argument you might be trying to make.

Latin experts surely will

Latin experts surely will understand the old Italian saying: "Tradutore, Traditore".

Yes, but they'll spell it

Yes, but they'll spell it correctly: "traduttore." Grazie.

Thank you for your

Thank you for your correction. I speak one of the romance languages (the one that is considered the closest to Latin), but I do not pretend to be an expert in all. English is not, even, my second language. I'll be grateful if you would correct my English too.

I cannot comment with

I cannot comment with authority on your English, but your American is pretty good ("... two counties divided by a common language ..." ;-)

This was a joy to read. Thank

This was a joy to read. Thank you, fellow Latin student, thank you.

What does this "kid" say

What does this "kid" say about the translation that hasn't been said ad nauseam by every NCR writer? He admits the translation is sound but doesn't like it because it allegedly conflicts with his progressive agenda. Oh, yes, let's go back to the days of each bishop writing his own Mass. That would be progress!

As I see it, the "kid" - a

As I see it, the "kid" - a man-child, really - actually says something fresh and new that I haven't heard or seen before. He's questioning whether the actual Latin text really represents what we as a Church believe. Yes, we are sinners, and need to know it . . . but do we believe that human nature is "overwhelmingly and inexorably sinful?" Do we only wish peace to "people of good will" - and what does that even mean? "Lex orandi lex credendi lex viviendi" - the law of prayer = law of belief = law of life.

As for me personally, I will miss "We believe" in the creed. It gave me a sense of being part of a bigger, believing community. And I think "consubstantial" and "was incarnate" are just silly. And silliness is what those who hated the changes in the Mass after Vatican II wanted to get rid of - right?

I applaud this young man for

I applaud this young man for his knowledge of Latin and church history. He mentioned the thing that bothered me most when I first saw the changes, i.e.,"I believe" from "We believe." That contradicts the theololgy I was taught.

Crumpelman -- other than

Crumpelman -- other than conceding that the translation is, in fact, accurate, the kid does not say anything about the translation that are not the standard talking points of those against the new translation.

P.S. I hardly think that saying "my most grevious fault" is going to give people a case of the scruples! If anything, in our society people don't feel guilty enough over sin.

our greatest commandments are

our greatest commandments are to Love. These commandments Jesus repeats in myriad ways, culminating in Love thy enemy as eloquently commentated in this article.

Where is the commandment to feel guilty? Kinda gets in the way of our greatest commandment, to love.

Love thy neighbor as thyself. Do we love ourselves when we feel breast-beating guilty? How does this help me love my neighbor? Do I go beat my neighbor's breast as well, telling my neighbors of their guilt?

Or do I follow Jesus, and Love?
Feed the hungry, heal the sick, free the prisoner, clothe the naked, receive the alien?

Love the enemy?

The greatest commandment is

The greatest commandment is to love God and part of loving God is to recognize our own offenses against Him and to feel contrition for them. you can not truly say you love someone and be completely non remorseful for actions which offend them and stab them in the back

what, anonymous dude, did

what, anonymous dude, did some vengeful god go whining to you about her feelings getting hurt by someone picking their nose in the most rude fashion, thinking no one was looking, except of course your Nazi god who sees us when we're picking, who knows when we're flatulent, who knows when we've been bad or good, and gets really really in a tiff when we're not good for goodness sake?

God is Love; deal with it. Move on, to Love. God forgives all, and loves, all.

Love thy enemy, or become thy enemy.

just love
just do it.

What did GOD say about it?
LOVE ONE ANOTHER!

Do good to those who hurt you

Feed the hungry.

LOVE THY ENEMY!!
like this great article says.

Hey BISHOPS!!

LOVE THY ENEMY DUDES!

Love WOMEN!!

No matter how angry and resentful you are at what your moms did to you, LOVE WOMEN

No matter what trauma you suffered as a small boy that left you now celibate in long signifying robes, LOVE WOMEN

Love women

anyway they tend to smell way better than whatever you been hanging around.
Or so I am told by those who should know.

LOVE WOMEN, BISHOPS!!

despite everything your mom did to you.

AND ESPECIALLY LOVE DR. JOHNSON

In fact you might go ahead and actually read her book: Quest for the Living God

I am praying my hardcover copy comes today in the mail to this distant desert hideaway

Love women, Bishops!
Respect WOMEN, Bishops!
HONOR WOMEN, Bishops!

Venerate WOMEN, Bishops!

Bishops, dudes, some of my best friends are women . . .

much creative life in you

much creative life in you Dude... Keep walking with the poetry holy people.

Dr. CPE
columns archived at NCRonline, El Rio Debajo del Rio. /Author: Untie the Strong Woman, winner of top honors in The USA "Best Books 2011" Awards.

"whether the actual Latin

"whether the actual Latin text really represents what we as a Church believe"

If that's actually a serious question for you maybe you (along with most NCR readers, really) should be going to a Protestant church.

It represents what the Church

It represents what the Church teaches people they ought to believe,and if they fail to believe what the Church teaches,it is the people who should leave rather than the teaching that should change.A religious teaching can never be treated as subject to alteration by human opinion,it's either eternal divine law or it isn't,and an organization that is wrong about eternal divine law merits no one's membership.

The problem with that

The problem with that response is that it contradicts the Church's position that it is uniquely able to assist with Salvation.
You can't have it both ways. If membership in the Church means conforming to the Vatican Boy's Club set of "No Girls Allowed" rules, well and good; but don't confuse that with anything to do with Salvation.
OTOH if the Church is about Salvation, then its theology has to conform to the reality of God, which most definitely was not frozen in place with the crafting of the Tridentine Mass.

The law is love, not blind

The law is love, not blind obedience to out-of-touch authority figures.

Scotus refers to this writer

Scotus refers to this writer as a 'Kid.' In my mind Scotus uses this word to diminish the author's quality of mind. That's a shame. The writer of this splendid discourse sounds to me like a brilliant man. The fact that he is 16 years old in no way diminishes the quality of his thought or of his masterful discourse. Moreover, I understand what he's getting at and I believe he is correct. Semper fidelis, Sir. Geh mit Gott, jungen Mannes.

Martin Young -- actually I

Martin Young -- actually I referred to him as a "kid" in quotes because I don't really believe that a 16 year old really wrote this. Assuming this 16 year old exists, I am willing to be that someone put these words in his mouth, since they almost exactly parrot the talking points of progressive Catholics who have been fighting the new translation. The "Latin whiz finds liturgy language lacking" was just a come-on to get people to read the article, because the jist of it had nothing to do with the mechanics of translation per se (he conceded they were right, or at least not wrong) but instead reverted to the same old criticisms that supporters of the current translation resort to to try to say that the new translation is "anti-Vatican II" or what-not.

I find it very hard to

I find it very hard to believe that a 16 year old wrote this article. If a 16 year old did, in fact, write this article, the teenager expresses an opinion that is not new. The opinions contained within can be found in plenty of other articles. So, I'm not willing to use the word "genius."

So much for this 16 year old being a latin whiz or expert ...

To address those who have

To address those who have stated their doubts about whether a 16 yr old actually wrote this essay, I can assure you that it is true. It was mid-summer when Sheil Catholic Center started preparing its members for the upcoming changes. We brought home the handout with the changes in it and discussed it over dinner that evening. My husband and I asked Erik, as the only person in the household with any Latin knowledge, what he thought of the translations. Later on that evening he handed us the first draft of this essay. He made only minor revisions before a family friend sent it to Bob. He never wrote this intending to have it published, nor did he read any other opinions. It was from his heart.

Erik's Mom on Nov. 03,

Erik's Mom on Nov. 03, 2011.

You stated:

"To address those who have stated their doubts about whether a 16 yr old actually wrote this essay, I can assure you that it is true. It was mid-summer when Sheil Catholic Center started preparing its members for the upcoming changes. We brought home the handout with the changes in it and discussed it over dinner that evening. My husband and I asked Erik, as the only person in the household with any Latin knowledge, what he thought of the translations. Later on that evening he handed us the first draft of this essay. He made only minor revisions before a family friend sent it to Bob. He never wrote this intending to have it published, nor did he read any other opinions. It was from his heart."
--------------------------------------------------------
You should be very proud to have such a fine young man as a son. As a teacher I would be delighted to have one like him in my classes.

He has done very well here---and those of us who were delighted to see his very well constructed essay and excellent reasons given for the criticisms that he made----are hoping to see more of his ideas as he continues to grow before God in wisdom, age, and grace.

God bless Eric, you and the rest of the family with love and peace.

So you hand your son a copy

So you hand your son a copy of the new translation of the Mass and ask him his opinion of the translation and he responds with an essay that segues from the translation to a general rumination about the ecclesiological implications of the translation and a claim that the Mass should be a localized thing free from Rome. Strange family you have there ...

Eric and his family now know

Eric and his family now know that when you participate in the Catholic arena you should wear your shield on your back.

OK, that made me snicker

OK, that made me snicker audibly:
"...when you participate in the Catholic arena you should wear your shield on your back."

Too true! Too true!

Actually the shield should

Actually the shield should not be worn so much on the back as the backside (any we all know what that means!)

Scotus on Nov. 03, 2011. You

Scotus on Nov. 03, 2011.

You stated:

"So you hand your son a copy of the new translation of the Mass and ask him his opinion of the translation and he responds with an essay that segues from the translation to a general rumination about the ecclesiological implications of the translation and a claim that the Mass should be a localized thing free from Rome. Strange family you have there ..."
---------------------------------------
Just because you could not compose an essay like this when you were 16 years old---don't assume that others of this age can't write.

Maybe it did not occur to you that the 'people in the pews'(youths included) are capable of even thinking critically about this liturgical rubbish that is going to be force-fed to Catholics on the First Sunday of Advent.

Maybe you don't believe that ordinary people (and priests are included in this)resent---not only the awkward English that they are presented with---but also the theological implications that are being foisted upon them.

And all of this is because our current Pope---prefers the Liturgy that was celebrated when he was Eric's age. And we know from his letter to Dr. HeinzLothar Barth in 2003----that Joseph Ratzinger---was pushing for a return to the liturgy of the old Roman rite, quietly but relentlessly.

Archangel Scotus, abusing

Archangel

Scotus, abusing children is a continuum in the church. It can occur in many ways. Your ad hominem attacks on this young writer's family and on the young man himself who merely stated his opinion WITHOUT attacking you or YOUR family, is not only not needed for national security, it is vile.

IMO You are out of line with your anger toward a young person who did NOTHING to you to invite your attacks on his and his family's character. Debate the issues, leave the attacking of children, young adults and their families out of it.

There is no way in this day and age that a Catholic cannot find ways to argue the issues without being vulgar, insulting and attacking the hearts and spirits of others for NO good reason other than their own personal and ongoing pique that originated elsewhere, and is served up as sludge everywhere now. Were this column and comments just adult to adult, that might be one thing Scotus, but you have crossed a line when you think it is alright to attempt to depersonalize the young.

Pax.
Dr. CPE
columns archived at NCRonline, El Rio Debajo del Rio. /Author: Untie the Strong Woman, winner of top honors in The USA "Best Books 2011" Awards.

@Dr. CPE -- you are assuming

@Dr. CPE -- you are assuming that a 16 year old person actually wrote this and/or the words/ideas were not put into his mouth by someone with an ulterior agenda (i.e. re-hashing the same tired arguments that "progressives" have made about the new translation but simply putting it out as the thoughts of a "whiz kid" in order to give it an angel that sounds new or original). Sorry, but I am not convinced as to the genesis of the letter being a spontaneous act of a 16 year old Latin scholar. Also, if you mean to imply that my incredulousness at the authenticity of the letter, whatever the merits of that, exists on some kind of "continuum" with the sexual abuse of children that has unfortunately occurred in the Church, then I think you are a very sick individual who obviously cannot engage in rational discussion without making slanderous ad hominem comparisons and NCR should remove you as a columnist if they have not already done so.

Archangel: Scotus: I stand by

Archangel:

Scotus: I stand by what I said about your vile attacks on a young person Scotus. Your ad hominem attacks on a 16 year old who has done nothing to attack YOUR family, YOUR mental state, YOUR person, are to be condemned in no uncertain terms.

Pax

Dr.CPE
columns archived at NCRonline

Dr. CPE - You need to learn

Dr. CPE - You need to learn to read. I have not attacked any 16 year old. I have doubted whether said 16 year old exists and/or is the true, original author the ideas expressed in the letter. That is called a doubt, not an attack. Your continued reference to my "vile attacks" or comparing it to child abuse speaks of your own inability to process ideas and opinions that differ from your own. Go pray NOW.

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