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Yes, Virginia, there is a future for Anglican/Catholic ties
by John L Allen Jr on Nov. 23, 2009
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Printer-friendly versionSend to friendPDF versionPope Benedict XVI and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, held a brief tête-à-tête in Rome on Saturday, amid the latest in a seemingly endless series of crises in relations between the Catholic church and the Anglican Communion. This time, the issue was the Vatican’s decision to create special structures for traditionalist Anglicans wishing to become Catholics.
In the main, both Benedict and Williams reaffirmed their commitment to good ties, even if Williams did gently chide the pontiff for what Williams saw as a failure to consult Anglican leaders more thoroughly in advance of the recent move. (In an address at the Jesuit-run Gregorian University, Williams also defended the ordination of women and suggested that differences over such matters “may not be as fundamentally church-dividing as our Roman Catholic friends generally assume.”)
This weekend’s encounter provides an opportunity to step back and contemplate the state of things between Anglicans and Catholics. To be sure, Catholicism isn’t General Motors or Microsoft – but if it were, a bean-counter in Rome might put down his eyeshade to ask: Why do we bother?
Forget theology for a moment, and just run the numbers. Today there are 1.1 billion Catholics in the world and just 77 million Anglicans. If half the Anglicans on the planet were to wake up tomorrow and decide to join the Catholic church (to be sure, a wildly improbable scenario), all 38.5 million of them together wouldn’t even represent one of the ten largest Catholic nations on earth. Outside the United Kingdom, Anglicanism isn’t really an important culture-shaping force in many places – and even in the U.K., that’s debatable. A recent study by the University of Manchester found that in a British household in which both parents are actively religious, the odds that a child will be religious are roughly 47 percent. If only one parent is active, it’s 24 percent; if neither are active, it’s 3 percent. Religiosity in the U.K. these days, in other words, has a half-life of one generation.
By way of contrast, there are an estimated 380 million Pentecostals of various stripes around the world, and Pentecostalism is the most important competitor facing Catholicism in regions such as Latin America and Africa. One study in Latin America in the late 1990s found that 8,000 people were leaving the Catholic church every day, most for some form of Pentecostalism. In many societies in the global South, Pentecostals play a key role in setting the cultural and political tone.
Despite its relatively small numbers, Anglicanism has an outsize capacity for generating headaches. Absent a clear mechanism for resolving disputes, it’s often difficult to know precisely where Anglicanism stands on issues such as gay marriage or women bishops – a frustration not just for Catholics, to be sure, but for Anglicans themselves. On the Catholic side, this sometimes leads to the suspicion that negotiating ecumenical agreements with Anglicans is a fruitless exercise, since there’s no way to be sure that the entire Communion will stand behind the results.
Facing this one-two punch of low numbers and big difficulties, a Catholic version of “total quality management” might suggest a reallocation of ecumenical resources away from Anglicanism (and Orthodoxy, for that matter) and toward the Pentecostals.
Yet no one, least of all Benedict XVI, is seriously suggesting putting Anglican/Catholic relations on a back-burner. Ask Catholic veterans of the ecumenical enterprise why, and aside from the obvious Biblical and theological imperative (Christ’s last prayer on earth was that we may all be one), they generally cite three reasons:
• There is an undeniable historic appeal to healing a rift that began with the English Reformation in the 16th century, especially given that in most external respects (prayer and worship styles, sacramental life) the Catholic church has more in common with Anglicanism than other churches of the Reformation;
• Whatever the sociological footprint of Anglicanism, it looms large in the imagination of the English-speaking world, including the media. Given that English has become the world’s default second language, developments in Anglican-Catholic relations inevitably have global implications;
• Since the Second Vatican Council (1962-65), the dialogue between Rome and Canterbury has long been considered a model for every other ecumenical relationship: gentlemanly, substantive, academically and theologically rigorous, and productive.
To that list, I would suggest adding a fourth consideration. Simply put, the future of Anglican/Catholic relations may well lie more in Africa than in Rome or Canterbury – and if so, the prospects in many ways look far more promising.
Today, Africa is home to almost 40 million Anglicans, more than half the global total. Given the stark difference in birth rates between the global north and the south, the African share of the Anglican population is certain to grow. Meanwhile, the Catholic population of sub-Saharan Africa exploded from 1.9 million in 1900 to 139 million in 2000, a growth rate of almost 7,000 percent. As a result, Africa will play a steadily more important role in setting the tone for the Catholic Church in the 21st century.
In Africa, Anglicans and Catholics aren’t divided over matters such as homosexuality or women priests and bishops, since both churches share a deeply conservative outlook. (As an aside, this is the primary reason that Anglicans in Africa have expressed precious little interest in Rome’s overture. In Africa, the traditionalists aren’t a beleaguered minority but the overwhelming majority. They’re not looking to abandon the Anglican Communion; they’re looking to take it over.)
Catholics and Anglicans in many African societies often perceive themselves to be facing the same challenges, especially Islam and Christian Pentecostalism. In religion, as in politics and war, there’s nothing like a common enemy to bring people together. Kenya offers a clear example at the moment, where Catholic and Anglican leaders are standing shoulder-to-shoulder to oppose recognition of the so-called “Kadhi Courts,” meaning tribunals based on Islamic law, in the country’s new constitution.
In addition, the flavor of Christianity in Africa is more ad extra than ad intra, more concerned with broad social, political and cultural issues than internal church debates. As a result, Catholics and Anglicans both see matters such as fighting poverty and corruption as better uses of their time than defining the precise nature of papal authority, or debating the fine points of liturgical practice. On those outward-looking social questions, Anglicans and Catholics in Africa generally share the same values and aims.
Finally, Anglican and Catholic leaders in Africa often aren’t as invested in the defining aim of the ecumenical movement in Europe and North America – full, visible, structural reunion. Instead, their ecumenism is often of a more practical stamp, focused on what the separate churches can do together right now on political and cultural matters. In that sense, the template for the ecumenical future may not be the new “personal ordinariates” decreed by Rome, but rather something like the “Christian Association of Nigeria,” a self-defense league formed in the late 1970s to defend Christians when Islamic militia began spreading around the countryside. It’s become an important player in Nigerian politics, with wings for both women and youth.
All of this suggests that new impulses arising from Africa could reshape the global relationship between Catholics and Anglicans, supplying new energy and avoiding the current dead-end over sexual morality.
In other words: Yes, Virginia, there is a future for Anglican/Catholic relations … but it may live closer to the South Pole than the North.
Rowan Williams is just being
Rowan Williams is just being diplomatic; what else can he do under the circumstances? The issue of the office of the priestess is a theological one but the gay issue is a moral one. The priestess issue did create a minor split when it first surfaced. And the ordination of a female bishop brought more fissure but still not that much.
However, the Episcopalians are the ones who really splintered the Anglican Church with the ordination of an actively gay man as a bishop. This pushed the envelope too far. Rome can't be blamed for this split in the Anglican Church. They brought it upon themselves.
John- Thank you, in your
John- Thank you, in your opening paragraph, for referring to "traditionalist Anglicans," not "disaffected Anglicans." The latter term, often employed in the media, gives the impression that those who will contemptate joining the new ordinatiate are uniformly bitter or angry people.
As a former Episcopal priest myself, and now a Catholic priest, I wish to state for the record that this is not the case. Most Anglicans who become Catholic do so becasue they believe that God has called them to do so- not becasue they're angry.
"As a former Episcopal priest
"As a former Episcopal priest myself, and now a Catholic priest, I wish to state for the record that this is not the case. Most Anglicans who become Catholic do so because they believe that God has called them to do so- not because they're angry."
I too am a former Anglican priest, since 1968 a Catholic priest. The statement above is absolutely correct. Benedict's new opening to Anglicans is a RESPONSE to Anglicans already united with us in faith (as the Lefevbreites, for instance, are NOT) who have been knocking on our door for some time, telling us they want to come in, but could they please preserve their beautiful and rich liturgical and spiritual heritage? These aee the ONLY Anglicans to whom Benedict has addressed his offer. Failing to open the door, or telling these people they must go round back, was never an option. In 1925, during the Catholic-Anglican conversations at Malines (Belgium), Dom Lambert Beauduin OSB read a paper entitled "The Anglican Church united not absorbed." Pope Paul VI used similar language when he canonized the Catholic martyrs of England. Up to now this has been just talk. Benedict has made it a reality. His offer is bold and generous. We must pray that Anglicans already united with us in faith find the courage to equally bold in their response.
How can you say that the
How can you say that the future of Anglican/Catholic relations lies in Africa when it is precisely to the much more conservative African Anglican dioceses that many conservative Episcopalians are aligning themselves? This is not CHristian unity (moving toward union with God and one another) but fleeing from the hard issues such as the ordination of gays and lesbians, with which the rest of us more mainstream Episcopalians have struggled and, in fact, have grown to value in our spiritual journeys. We will continue to pray for real CHristian unity, which includes all of us.
So JR... Now I get
So JR...
Now I get it.......
The meaning of real Christian unity is "agree with me and all will be well"?
Maybe your african brothers and sisters don't think that the ordination of gays and lesbians is "hard" issue at all...but a turn from their faith that they won't make...because to them it doesn't provide the basis for unity at all.
Maybe they belive that it is the white, rich, liberal Episcopalians that are threatening to wreck their church over a delusion. I've watched some of it here at close range. It ain't pretty.
But...
... inveterate paternalists would have a hard time recognizing this as serious coming from the "new arrivals", never mind a backward Catholic.
Condolences
One would hope that in time
One would hope that in time (albeit not in my lifetime) the African churches will come to see homosexuality as God-given, not some kind of disorder, etc.
Education and information are the answer.
We "white, rich, liberal" folks have kept the Africans subjugated (and, hence, dumbdowned) over the years.
With education and opportunity for critical reflection come expanded horizons and the opportunity to escape the bonds and shackles imposed by "white, rich, liberal" folks.
Please educate me - precisely
Please educate me - precisely when did God overturn His teaching that you don't put the petrol where the oil goes?
As I understand it, Genesis, Leviticus, Romans 1:18-32, 1 Corintians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:9-10 and Romans 1:26, as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church 2357 all affirm that homosexual acts are disordered. Maybe I'm just not educated? Please enlighten me.
So now they're just
So now they're just dumb....just need education...from guess who!!
They more you folks talk the worse it all sounds
When you're in a hole stop digging
Seventy-seven million is a
Seventy-seven million is a number not to be diminished by comparisons. And isn't it H.H. Benedict himself who pondered whether smaller numbers are possibly more dynamic than large ones?
With all her problems, the Anglican Communion has both my affection and my high regard. It has a rich history, linked to both the Orthodox and Roman churches. Her prayer books are wonderful, poetic, and lovely. Her prayer is musical and inspiriting. Her churches feel like home. Thank God for all those whose home is the Anglican Communion.
I am delighted and grateful to live in a time when the diverse households of faith can savor and treasure one another's presence and ministry in the world.
Archbishop Peter
Orthodox-Catholic Church of America
Thank you, Mr. Allen, for the
Thank you, Mr. Allen, for the statistics and the insights...people in the U.S., including Catholics, have blinders on regarding their own influence, population growth, economic status, and being the "beloved" of the entire world...if world politics doesn't cause major shifts in influence, world religions will!
"Absolutely null and utterly
"Absolutely null and utterly void." Those words alone should be fair enough warning to the Anglican Communion as to its standing with the Church of Rome. The simply brute fact is that as far as Benedict is concerned, he met with Mr. Rowan Williams. There can be no "structural unity" with Rome. There is only absorption and submission. The Orthodox have no illusions about this. Those Anglicans who convert under the terms of the recent papal provisions will, with time, see the full result of their desperate union.
Gone are the days of the
Gone are the days of the giants who gave us Vatican II. Today the church is suffering from mitered midgets out to hijack the Chruch of Vatican II.
Papal fishing in Anglican waters flies in the face of Vatican II and the spriti of scumenism. Does the Catholic church really need dissident Protestants whose anti-woman and anti-gay bias is evident? Does our church need the dissident followers of Marcel Lefervre who persist in their denial of the reforms of the Second Vatican Council?
Apparently there are many in the Vatican and American hierarchy who think so and who wish the Council had never happened. They are hellbent on turning back the clock to Tridentine times.
I am all for reunion of the Anglican and Roman communities but not at this price.
Using the Nigerian example,
Using the Nigerian example, Mr. Allen writes the answer "may live closer to the South Pole than the North."
Isn't Nigeria north of the equator, by a good ten degrees of latitude, and thus closer to Santa than we assume?
Does not Kenya itself, ancestral homeland of our fine new president, lean one degree north of the equator, and also closer to the land of Santa than that of the penguins?
Nerds and geeks like me are more concerned about these things than over the clever literary device of the title and conclusion. Such bean counting nevertheless is as fruitless as convincing an Ivy Leaguer that Mexico is a North American nation.
We read here as well: "One study in Latin America in the late 1990s found that 8,000 people were leaving the Catholic church every day . . ." and weep as we remember that was the epoch in which the Vatican ardently persecuted the great Friar Boff (cf. Harvey Cox) and remained obstinately silent regarding the martyrdom of so many in El Salvador, including Monsenor Romero, the REv. Fr. Ignacio Ellacuria and companions, as well as several priests in Guatemala, including Maryknoll's Father Bill Woods. That was the time in which we watched Rome persecute every priest who stood with the oppressed People of God (read Penny Lernoux), inclduing Maryknoll Father Miguel D'Escoto, and advanced the traditional colonialist oppressors, such as Cardinal Obanda. The Catholic people were an fact abandoned to malign neglect in the face of Reagan's dirty wars, and could find no other spiritual solace, comfort, reinforcement, relief, than in fleeing to the arms of another woman, Pat Robertson-funded Pentecostals (odd when the principal genocidal maniac of Guatemala who slaughtered wholesale entire ancient language groups of the Mayan in the mountains, himself "converted' to the Pentecostal sect to the great praise of Pat Robertson, who wrote a book about him, rather like that contra crusader Newt Gingrich now becoming a Catholic, having murdered so many back then, but do not get me started).
The Wojtyla Catholic Church obstinately abandoned Catholics in Latin America to their brutal fate at the hand of right wing dictators and para military groups like the contra. Catholics tragically found nowhere else to turn in the face of this taciturn approval of their slaughter, torture, kidnapping and rape. And Pat Robertson, at the same time as supporting the contra militarily and financially and spiritually, was just too glad to receive all these pushed out (not fallen away) Catholics abandoned by Rome.
Read your Bishop Pedro Casaldaliga.
sorry for sharing
it still hurts.
I wept at JPII's attitude
I wept at JPII's attitude towards those who supported liberation theology, which JPII regarded as communism. His Polish baggage caused him to see communism everywhere. His treatment of those who suppported the option for the poor, especially Archbishop Romero, was dispicable. Thank you for your words.
Let me see: John Paul came
Let me see:
John Paul came from a country that endured 6 years of Nazism and 20% of its people murdered, followed by 50 years of communism, ongoing persecution of believers and the clergy, and ... after 60 years, the country is still predominantly Catholic.
The liberated theologians inherited a continent at least nominally Catholic, tried to adapt a philosophy based on "hate your brother in the enemy class," and eventually wound up with a hemorrhage of Catholics joining Pentecostalism and other sects ....
.... that myopic, limited, narrow-minded John Paul.
An interesting rant having
An interesting rant having nothing to do with the topic, but this is not unusual for Frere Charles. He remains one of my favorite "nerds and geeks."
Since staying on topic has nothing to do with this thread, I should like to say that John Allen and I served on the same faculty and I was a classmate of Penny Lernoux. Rather than rebut Frere Charles may I just say, "Oh Yeah!" Thus we remain on the same level. I will once again forward his "thoughts" to "The Onion."
Thankyou "it still hurst" for
Thankyou "it still hurst" for reminding us of some of the truth that happened during those horrific years. They were years which showed the real face of the Wojtyla church,away from the performances for the camera, its political alliances with Washington and with its Pentecostal arm, its gleeful and ideological abandonment of the Church of the Poor, its complicitness in the murders and violence against its constructed enemies within
the People of God.All of the People of God should still cry out in outrage at what happened.A great evil was committed, and yet in our spiritual immaturity we pretend that such darkness was not and is not part of our Church.
Mr. Allen further writes: "In
Mr. Allen further writes: "In addition, the flavor of Christianity in Africa is more ad extra than ad intra, more concerned with broad social, political and cultural issues than internal church debates. As a result, Catholics and Anglicans both see matters such as fighting poverty and corruption as better uses of their time than defining the precise nature of papal authority, or debating the fine points of liturgical practice."
I pray for the day Africa soon comes to anglo America to convert us to practicing the Catholic Faith.
God Bless Pope Benedict XVI
God Bless Pope Benedict XVI and Archbishop Rowan Williams. Let us all pray for religious peace and unity in the world.
Thank you John Allen. I have
Thank you John Allen. I have a few thoughts to share with you on this matter. If Anglican/Catholic ties are based on bashing gays and women they would seem to have more in common with Islam and the Taliban than with Jesus Christ. Yes, all religious sects could fight each other to the death and create their own martyrs for the "faith." But there will be no winners in such a battle, only losers.
So which part of Anglican/Catholic leadership do you wish to follow? That seems to be the real issue here and will decide whether the Church remains in "culture war" or in peace with Christ. Seems to me the time has come to choose your side and take your pick now, or as soon as you can discern universally with Christ or globally as well as locally and able to connect the dots.
The Pentecostals are choosing gay and women bashing to divide the Churches in Africa and to create a "Christian" theocratic government in the US with the old energy dead-end over sexual morality and they have won some Catholic Bishop's approval and they are spreading this cancerous disease into the USCCB and Africa and South America. They are not truly "Christian" in case anyone is wondering. You will know them by their fruits, but if we wait too long to see the fruits of their labor, we could be in WWIII.
John asks "Why do we bother?" The question of why does the Pope bother to try to bring in fundamentalist bigots and misogynist, as well as holocaust deniers from the Anglican Church? Keep asking and contemplating on that for a while, because it is a question worth an answer that would lead you to the truth.
Ask yourself that within the context of what it is that we all need in order to get closer to God. That will bring you to some other interesting and life threatening issues that continue to go unaddressed while there is a persistent culture war going on. Ask yourself why this war as opposed to the one everyone is trying to avoid addressing: a military industrial complex with nuclear weapons and the trillions spent on it annually, and such power being used falsely in the name of god. Ask yourself if culture wars and/or wedge issues will bring peace or death and destruction? Ask, what is the purpose of the powerful & political in using wedge issues instead of pastoral guidance that would bear good fruit: peace, joy, love, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, self-control, as taught in (Galatians).
Let's make a deal. We get
Let's make a deal. We get your married priests and you get ours priests who want to marry.
I've talked to MANY Anglicans
I've talked to MANY Anglicans of late. John Allen is so far off the mark that I now truly question his ability to research before he writes an article such as this. First, most Anglicans I talk to see the far right reactionaries in their ranks as people who will never accept either women's ordination as a valid theological point or the consecration of gay people to the ranks of bishop, and last but not least the inclusion of same sex couples as a blessed arrangement. There is a great deal of bigotry and hatred on the part of these Anglicans who plan to cross over to Rome. Mainstream Anglicans are only too happy to see them leave as they impede the progression of these issues. Anglicans were once full of hope about reunion with Rome but those hopes were dashed with the election of John Paul II and statements from Ratzinger that their orders were not VALID. That was a provocative and un-Christian attack by Ratzinger. They of course disagree vehemently with Ratzinger's views on their validly ordained deacons, priests and bishops. They also trace their Apostolic Succession back to Augustine of Canterbury. They strongly feel The Church of Rome has been in error since the Reformation and Trent and they do not back down on several issues that sprang from this period in Church history. They regard themselves as the REFORMED Holy Catholic Church with an Anglican identity. John Allen seems to devalue them in his own way and this does not help the discussion. So many Roman Catholic priests have switched over to the Anglican Communion and many are happily married with families. So, yes there is a future with Anglican-Roman relations but it has been set back at least five hundred years and Anglicans are moving on because they see Rome as stuck in Trent and unable to realize the promises of Vatican II.
You make good sense Chris
You make good sense Chris Smith.
Catholics were once full of
Catholics were once full of hope about reunion with Anglicans but those hopes were dashed with the unilateral "ordination" of women by the Anglicans, thumbing their noses at the Catholics who had previously warned them that such a move would create an insurmountable obstacle to unity. That was a provocative and un-Christian attack by the rich white clique which had hijacked the Anglican leadership, and which then went on to declare that sodomy is not only not a sin, but is positively good. The statement from Ratzinger confirming that Leo XIII's infallible declaration that Anglican orders orders are not valid, remains true, had nothing to do with it.
"So many Roman Catholic priests have switched over to the Anglican Communion"
Catholic clergy and laity who have converted to Anglicanism are outnumbered by more than ten to one by Anglican clergy and laity who have converted to Catholicism. As for the quality of the respective converts (charity, integrity, intelligence, faith, piety, holiness, humility) I'll leave you to judge by considering the most prominent examples.
You refer to the magnificent
You refer to the magnificent talk given by the Catholic theologian Rowan Williams, at present Archbishop of Canterbury, at the Gregorian University. Many Roman Catholics would go all the way with Rowan's take on RC-Anglican relations and his emphasis on the importance of the doctrinal consensus already achieved and the place of "second order" disagreements such as gay marriage, the ordination of women and the precise placing of the Petrine primacy. In time, a majority of Roman Catholics might well find themselves in full accord with the Catholic Archbishop.
I'm not sure your African statistics should give such a monolithic impression of the state of the Anglican Churches in sub-Saharan Africa. African Anglican bishops such as Desmond Tutu in South Africa have no problem with either gay marriage or the ordination of women. The future looks fluid.
I can't see how "gay
I can't see how "gay marriage" or even the office of the priestess are second order things. One turns God's design for both human sexuality & marriage on its head and the other makes a joke of the ordained priesthood. There can be no unity between orthodox Catholics & those who believe in these two false concepts.
"I'm not sure your African
"I'm not sure your African statistics should give such a monolithic impression of the state of the Anglican Churches in sub-Saharan Africa. African Anglican bishops such as Desmond Tutu in South Africa have no problem with either gay marriage or the ordination of women."
The article does not claim that 100% of African Anglicans monolithically agree on these issues. But Tutu is in a tiny tiny minority among African Anglicans. Among African Anglican bishops, Tutu is a minority of one.
Why does our Catholic church
Why does our Catholic church want to identify itself with misogyny and homophobia? I am appalled that one of these former Anglican priests -- gay and women haters -- will be pastor of a parish I am in. Haven't we suffered enough from priest pedophiles?
I see why 8,000 people a day in Latin America are leaving the Catholic church and heading for Pentacostalism.
So because marriage has
So because marriage has always been and will always be between a man and woman I am not a "gay-hater." Because the Catholic priesthood has always been and will always be conferred on males only I am a "woman-hater." I love liberal logic!
"I see why 8,000 people a day
"I see why 8,000 people a day in Latin America are leaving the Catholic church and heading for Pentacostalism"
Well..."that" will will certainly be stemmeed through gay marriage and women priests....let's get cracking!!!
Don't know why we hadn't thought of that sooner.
Better bring this to Benedict's attention post haste...I'm sure he'll jump right on it!!
Allen casually dismisses the
Allen casually dismisses the Pope's insult and Anglicanism's hurt: "...even if Williams did gently chide...failure to consult Anglican leaders". Always trying to carry the tone and subtelty of diplomatic translation Allen betrays something less than scrupulous in reporting here. To "gently chide" the pope is eminently clear. Yes, of course there is a future for Anglican/Catholic ties but it is not because of Benedict, it is because of the Christian charity of Williams.
One has to pity anyone who
One has to pity anyone who tries to report a picture more complex than either doctrinaire rightists or leftists will tolerated. Mr Allen's article is reportage of the highest order, at least in my opinion. Like Chris Smith above, I have also talked to a number of Anglicans, some of whom think that what Benedict has done is terrible, some of whom think it's great. All seem sad that their church has come to this, but few on either the conservative or the progressive side would, I think, agree with Archbishop Williams that issues like homosexuality and the ordination of women and gays to priesthood and episcopacy are second-order questions.
But second-order questions often stir up more controversy than more basic ones, and the dust kicked up by such controversies irritates both the eyes and brains of everyone. Alas, I think Williams is right about what is first-order and second-order, but I suspect he will convince neither the Left nor the Right in either church nor the Vatican.
John Allen is just bringing to our attention the fact that there are many sides to the question. I thank him and hope that the barbed arrows aimed at him won't deter him from giving us those different sides.
why does the fact that I dont
why does the fact that I dont accept that women can be priests make me a misogynist? I dont hate women, I love and respect them especially Our Lady and the Catholic church would fall apart and be very much the poorer if it was not for the many holy hardworking and good women within it. And why does calling me a homophobe mean that you cannot hear my arguments for considering homosexual acts to be sinful. That does not mean that I am frightened of or hate homosexuals. You can call me an adultorophobe if I consider adultery a sin but I do not hate or fear those guilty of that sin. I am not free from sin myself
You talk as if England was
You talk as if England was always Roman Catholic up to our break with Rome. But, of course, Rome didn't push its way into England until 597. Up to that point we had a national orthodox church based on the Eastern Church rather than the Roman model. Augustine was actually sponsored by one of our Christian queens. During the period of Roman dominance we kept our own rites and even, thanks to King Alfred, enjoyed translations of the scriptures into the vernacular. Our monarchs were renowned for keeping Rome at arms length.
Therefore, any unity with Rome would have to be between two ancient, distinct churches and not just a re-run of the 597 Gregorian takeover. And, bearing in mind that Jesus visited England with his Uncle Joseph of Arimathea well before anyone made up the bit about Peter ending up in Rome, we should, of course, be the senior partner.
But please, none of your homophobes and misogynists. We've only just convinced the old boy in Italy to take ours away and it would be a shame to waste all the hard work we put in on arranging that.
Actually, Madpriest, it would
Actually, Madpriest, it would be wasting all the hard work and money of the Institute For Religion and Democracy. The IRD poured tons and tons of money into assuring that Peter Akinola became the divisive force he became for you Anglicans.
That's probably why Akinola is prominently listed as a signatory on the Manhattan Manifesto. The IRD is getting a lot of bang for the bucks they put in Akinola. Just as they are from the American Catholic bishops who seem to be in their pocket.
As a poster said earlier, keeping the focus on gays and women clergy sure does keep it off the trillions spent on the Military Industrial Complex--which to my way of thinking, the MIC most certainly should be a primary focus for any so called Christian denomination.
Thanks for the wonderful
Thanks for the wonderful comic relief. Gee, I didn't know that the author of "1066 And All That" was still alive!
Quote from "Presbyter
Quote from "Presbyter simplex"
I too am a former Anglican priest, since 1968 a Catholic priest. The statement above is absolutely correct. Benedict's new opening to Anglicans is a RESPONSE to Anglicans already united with us in faith (as the Lefevbreites, for instance, are NOT) ..."
________
Sorry Father, but if you can't see the difference between the Anglican schism/heresy and the Lefebvrite situation you need to go back to seminary... and make it a Catholic one this time.
The SSPX believe everything that you were supposed to believe back in 1968 when you entered the Church, and the SSPX has not changed one bit. Until anyone can identify what doctrine has changed since then, nothing from VaticanII is necessarily to be believed for both one's communion in the Catholic Church and for one's salvation.
Tell us what new doctrine or development is necessary to be believed since VaticanII or take back your slander of the good priests of the SSPX.
It is in large because of
It is in large because of some of the African Anglican dioceses that in 1988 at the Lambeth Conference that Resolution 26 was adopted. It reads,
Resolutions from 1988
Resolution 26
Church and Polygamy
This Conference upholds monogamy as God's plan, and as the ideal relationship of love between husband and wife; nevertheless recommends that a polygamist who responds to the Gospel and wishes to join the Anglican Church may be baptized and confirmed with his believing wives and children on the following conditions:
(1) that the polygamist shall promise not to marry again as long as any of his wives at the time of his conversion are alive;
(2) that the receiving of such a polygamist has the consent of the local Anglican community;
(3) that such a polygamist shall not be compelled to put away any of his wives, on account of the social deprivation they would suffer;
(4) and recommends that provinces where the Churches face problems of polygamy are encouraged to share information of their pastoral approach to Christians who become polygamists so that the most appropriate way of disciplining and pastoring them can be found, and that the ACC be requested to facilitate the sharing of that information.
http://www.lambethconference.org/resolutions/1988/1988-26.cfm
How will Rome deal with the polygamists in the African Anglican dioceses?
Polygamy is increasing in Africa and not dying out as some would have you believe.
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