Vatican II themes: The church is ecumenical

Archbishop Ireland of St. Paul, MN, allowed/encouraged intercommunion with Lutherans/Episcopalians (1800s). That was before the reactionary Vatican chopped off the head of US bishops by requiring that they all be "educated" in Rome. Before the beheading bishops in the US came from a tradition of family education. After the head roll bishops were appointed from families with little or no education.

The differences in doctrines among Christian churches today is reminscent of the early Church in which many differences also existed. Fr. Raymond Brown wrote authoritatively on this in his scholarly works. It seems that the term "perduring historical continuity" should be interpreted with caution and measured judgement, since the history of early Christianity is fraught with persistent debates and understanding of Jesus' message.

Does it drive any one else just a bit crazy when words are chosen whose interpretations then have to be disputed for years? So many Christian people have poor English reading skills through no fault of their own. Instead of something for all, it is most separative, hardly inclusive.

Instead of moving forward, there is a definite move to be "safe", supposedly.

The Roman Catholic Church is blessed to possess the fullness of revealed truth. She is equally challenged to be as perfect as she can be, since from whom much is given, much is expected.

The other Christian denominations preach the truth when their teaching coincides with that of the Roman Catholic Church. When that teaching separates from the teaching of Holy Mother Church, they are in error. For example, most Protestant denominations recognize two sacraments: Holy Communion and Baptism. They are teaching truth when they teach that these are sacraments; they are teaching falsehood, however, when they teach that these are the only sacraments.

This has been and continues to be the established teaching of the Church. True ecumenical dialogue will occur when the discussions are based on the true teachings of the Church and when we do not shy away from confronting the errors of the other denominations in a spirit of humility and fraternal charity.

Thank you, your topic and explication is excellent for the seminarians. When I spoke to few of them, their thinking was that We need to be faitful to the catholic believe. Yes we need to be treasure our relationship with the entire world
God's goodness and love is for all and God 's banquet chooses every one who desires.
Blessings
Arlid

Thank you for your clear explanation. Perhaps the young people will bring us closer together

Frankly,I find myself somewhat confused.Didn't pope Benedict make it clear that protestant churches aren't real churches? In the face of such a blatant,deliberate insult,these so-called ecumenical endeavours are intented to accomplish exactly what?h

Strange how "Mystical Body of Christ" isn't alluded to very often these days in Roman Pontiff Ratzinger's Church of "the orthodox" of which he is "Universal Pastor". A fiction of relatively recent invention. In other words, his version of Rome or hit the road?

Roman supremacy was rejected by the Oriental Orthodox 1600 years ago and the Orthodox have never accepted.it. We are all--Roman, Anglican, Lutheran, Orthodox, Reformed--born into the Mystical Body at our baptism. If all of us were born into this Mystical Body but incurred excommunication by embracing what Rome views as heresy (due to invincible ignorance), then the same applies from the standpoint of the Orthodox Churches for Roman Catholics and Protestants. Both are heretical, but to a different extent.

The true marks of the "True Church" can be found only in the churches which have kept the faith inviolate since the Fathers and have maintained an "orthodox" liturgy free of heresy and Calvinist or heretical impurities.

Alas, the Roman patriarch has deviated in recent decades and since the division in 1054. All of which culminated in the Reformation in the 16th century. Clearly, Pontiff Ratzinger has abdicated his primacy and should publicly declare he is stepping aside as guiding light of the ecumenical movement and permit the Orthodox Churches to assume guardianship of the deposit of faith and holy tradition. It is Rome and the heretics of the west who must seek forgiveness, enlightenment, communion and reconciliation with the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox churches and be reconciled to the only fount of truth embedded in the historic Patriarchates.

Thanks Fr. Richard, I felt very privileged to be at Moreau seminary when we
had a Lutheran presence there. I recall a great celebration when we all went
to the ordination of a Lutheran fellow seminarian. After Louis Putz things changed. I have always felt that the Gospel truth is that there is only one Christ, One Body and One Church. To whatever degree we all belong to that
One Church. I have a dislike for supremacy claims that all will be well when
the others toe the line. This is a very unchristian arrogance. The very early church was rife with disagreement on many issues. Many years were spent trying to come to some consistent doctrine. But the human aspect of Church
pretty much insures that there will not be total agreement on all issues ever.
I do wish the Triumphalism could be set aside. It makes no sense whatever to
trot out a heavy dose of triuymphalism followed by this ""spirit of humility and fraternal charity"", what utter disingenuous nonsense. Error is something
we all share and it would help to make no claims as to whose error is the
greatest or the least.
That we all may be one!
TomC

I note the authors selective choice of quotes. The decree also states that is in Christs Catholic Church ALONE that the fullness of the means of grace and truth are to be found and that nothing is more contrary to true ecumenism that false irenism, etc..........

The subsist in question is not a small matter. I think it clearly shows that the Council taught error or at least has ambiguity which needs to be qualified. Up intil the Council an exact equality was maintained between the Catholic Church & the Church of Christ. This can be found in the encyclical "The Mystical Body of Christ" by Pius XII. To maintain that the Church of Christ only susbsists or exists fully in the Catholic Church is to imply that it also exists elsewhere but where exactly?

I have never considered myself a Traditionalist but I find myself in complete agreement with Lefebvre on the errors & ambiguities of the Council. He wrote a small book called "I accuse the Council." Personally, I feel he is right on all his points about ten.

Vatican II errors & ambiguities:

Definition of Catholic Church - LG
Collegiality - LG
Not propperly defining Tradition in "Dei Verbum"
Communism - no mention
Hell - no mention (only 1 scriptural footnote)
Ecumenism
Conscience
Religious liberty
Jewish Covenant
Ends of marriage

I very recently read in a post an observation that liberal Catholics and those from other liberal Christian denominations are comfortable with one another and praying together, while the fundamentalist/evangelical and Orthodox/conservative Catholic who, when allowed (Rick Perry doesn't seem to be a big fan of this mix), will come together to pray for a shared political agenda, but in their hearts they believe the other is going to hell. I thought this was both an interesting as well as accurate observation. One more of the stumbling blocks I have with aligning myself with the orthodox/conservatives, yet who remain my sisters and brothers in Christ.

The RC Church needs to get its own house in order before it says that others are separated from the truth if their beliefs ado not coincide with catholic teachings. One example: Jesus established 7 sacraments. Catholic men get the full seven while catholic women get only six.

Most of us already live in very ecumenical families. Most of us get to our decisions on how to handle a son marrying a Lutheran girl without the debates presented in this article. The Lutheran girl's sister marries a Catholic and converts to Catholicisim, while my son becomes a member of the Lutheran church. Both couples have raised wonderful children. Their parents, the grandparents of their children have found a way of attending the celebrations of the various sacraments, or just celebrating Easter and Christmas in the churches of the other's denomination. The extended family is just as ecumenical and even more complex, when you add the gay partnerships. So perhaps some of you might say that I'm a cafeteria Catholic, or that I am no longer a practicing Catholic. That might just be the case, but I sit with my Lutheran granddaughter and my RC grandson and listen to each of them say their night time prayers together and negotiate their differences, as well as correct their misunderstanding of what they each learn in Sunday School or in their parochial schools.....but I always feel God's presence as we pray together. I truly am blessed and grateful.

Many of the above comments illustrate that we still don't seem to "get" the message of Jesus' time on earth. Thank, Fr. McBrien for trying to educate and enlighten. Blessings.
W2FMF

Contrary to McB’s assertion that Francis Sullivan “gave the best translation of the subsistit in clause, the statement her quoted (The Church of Christ) "continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church" actually came from Dominus Iesus (2000). It may be that Fr. Sullivan happened to like this particular expression.

1. McB than argued that the key word is “fully.” One can equally say that the key word here is “only.” Since there is only one true Church of Christ, the fullness of the Church exists ONLY in the Catholic Church and nowhere else (neither in any or all of the particular eastern churches or Protestant denominations).

2. It appears that subsequent to CDF’s explanation of LG’s article 8, some theology academics/scholars have misinterpreted and distorted the statement (as McB might have done). These are probably the people McB refers to when he wrote “the weight of interpretation of article 8 continues to favor the great majority of theologians…” These are likely to be dissenting or liberal-minded self-style theology academics.

3. Contrary to McB's argument, there is really no different and certainly no conflict between the “exist fully only in” statement and CDF’s 2007 statement “subsistence means this perduring historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic church, in which the church of Christ is concretely found on this earth."

4. It was precisely because of those mis-interpretation and misleading explanations, and mis-representations of the subsistit in expression (by self-style, free-wheling and dissenting "theologians") that CDF found it necessary to clarify and further elaborate on its authentic meaning. The 2007 “Responses” clearly states that the Church’s declaration on the true meaning of the clause does not in any way suggest that “the identification of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church no longer holds.”

Remember, the Old Catholic Churches split with Rome over this issue at Vatican I. It is time to revisit this and the entire Petrine Ministry. The imperial model is dysfunctional and centuries out of touch with reality. It must go. The sooner, the better. I look forward to our first female Bishop of Rome and the abolishment of the College of Cardinals. I look forward to our bishops and priests being able to marry and raise families as is the natural path as was followed in the early Church. I look forward to women priests and the inclusion of the glbt community. I look to Future Church. Vatican III will likely happen sooner rather than later.